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Offline Essence

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355599#msg355599
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2011, 09:06:48 pm »
As a scientific tool, no -- determinism is decent when discussing measurable phenomenon above the quantum level.

As a philosophy, yes, absolutely, we ditch it.
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Offline maverixkTopic starter

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355601#msg355601
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2011, 09:13:37 pm »
But why do we ditch it philosophically? Determinism, or cause and effect, seems like a perfectly reasonable philosophy. When did we switch from science to philosophy?
"Are you ... comparing me to God? I mean, that's great, but just so you know, I've never made a tree." -House

Offline Essence

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355607#msg355607
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2011, 09:32:38 pm »
Because determinism fails to accomplish the major goals of philosophy, which are

1) Epistemology -- the study of how we know things.  Because we cannot measure that thing that causes us to remember, we cannot use determinism to study how we know.

2) Metaphysics -- the study of the structure of the universe.  Science has gotten us to quantum mechanics, but Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle limits our ability to measure very small things, and the vast gulf of space limits our ability to measure very distant things, so we cannot use determinism to study either extreme of the universe's construction.

3) Ethics -- the study of how we ought to act.  Because we cannot take all variables into account at once, we cannot accurately predict the outcomes of our actions using determinism. 

4) Logic -- the study of how we reason.  While determinism follows the rules of logic, logic does not always follow the rules of determinism.  Determinism postulates that all statements that are made are either true or false, whereas many branches of logic -- particularly 'fuzzy logic' -- allow for truth values to be any real number between zero (untrue) and one (true).  Thus at least one entire branch of logic lies outside the realm of deterministic analysis, and the complete failure of determinism to function as a philosophy is complete. 
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Offline maverixkTopic starter

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355615#msg355615
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2011, 09:47:31 pm »
Ok, determinism does not work very well for philosophy. In this thread I've realized that my original statement has some flaws in it. since then, we've gone back and forth, and I seriously doubt either of us will gain anything more from this. So unless you have something further to say, I'm done. Not from lack of material, though. I just don't think anything more will come of this.
     You don't seem like you're changing your opinion anytime soon, and I don't think I will either...so truce for now? :)
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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355616#msg355616
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2011, 09:48:21 pm »
Can we use Indeterminism to create results?

Offline Essence

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355617#msg355617
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2011, 09:55:55 pm »
No truce necessary; I'm not upset or anything.  Just sharing what I know to be true.  :)

Can we use Indeterminism to create results?
Absolutely.  The difference between determinism and indeterminism can be summed up as the difference between a linear relationship between cause and effect (determinism) and a non-linear relationship between cause and effect (Indeterminism).  Non-linear causal relationships form a vast sector of advanced mathematics including chaos theory, upon which we base most meteorology, quite a bit of computer programming, and many other advanced predictive algorithms.

Indeterminism is utterly vital to our current understanding of the world.
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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355642#msg355642
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2011, 11:32:29 pm »
No truce necessary; I'm not upset or anything.  Just sharing what I know to be true.  :)

Can we use Indeterminism to create results?
Absolutely.  The difference between determinism and indeterminism can be summed up as the difference between a linear relationship between cause and effect (determinism) and a non-linear relationship between cause and effect (Indeterminism).  Non-linear causal relationships form a vast sector of advanced mathematics including chaos theory, upon which we base most meteorology, quite a bit of computer programming, and many other advanced predictive algorithms.

Indeterminism is utterly vital to our current understanding of the world.
Regardless of whether determinism is true, there is no foundation for the belief that we can be first causes. All indeterminism suggests to me is that things can happen without any rhyme or reason at all. Kinda like "magic." It may be that determinism is simply a cognitive bias built into our brains, but it is the only way we can understand the world (that I am aware of). I consider it to be a necessary assumption; I do not consider the assumption of free will to be necessary given passive self-determinism.
Quote from: Wikipedia
Determinism is the general philosophical thesis that states that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen.
I found it interesting that this definition didn't say anything about linear causes.

Offline Essence

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355646#msg355646
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2011, 11:49:04 pm »
Ummm...those words define linear causes.  Using the language of logic, "for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given them, nothing else could happen" is written "X -> Y", or "if X then Y".  That's the definition of a linear cause.
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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355661#msg355661
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2011, 12:33:32 am »
OP- Omnipotence + Omniscience are fundamentally exclusive from the idea of free will.

If god is omni (I'm lazy), then he created me exactly how he wanted to and know exactly every choice i would make before I even existed, then how can anybody claim I have anything even remotely resembling free will?

Offline maverixkTopic starter

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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355667#msg355667
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2011, 12:36:19 am »
OP- Omnipotence + Omniscience are fundamentally exclusive from the idea of free will.

If god is omni (I'm lazy), then he created me exactly how he wanted to and know exactly every choice i would make before I even existed, then how can anybody claim I have anything even remotely resembling free will?
That's what I was trying to say!
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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355670#msg355670
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2011, 12:42:24 am »
OP- Omnipotence + Omniscience are fundamentally exclusive from the idea of free will.

If god is omni (I'm lazy), then he created me exactly how he wanted to and know exactly every choice i would make before I even existed, then how can anybody claim I have anything even remotely resembling free will?
Omnipotence is the ability not the motive. An omnipotent being could decide to make a free willed being provided free will was possible without said god.
Omniscience is a small feat if one is outside of time (as I described before).
An OO god would have seen the end before creating the beginning because the end could exist before the beginning to them.
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Re: Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27862.msg355674#msg355674
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2011, 12:50:12 am »
OP- Omnipotence + Omniscience are fundamentally exclusive from the idea of free will.

If god is omni (I'm lazy), then he created me exactly how he wanted to and know exactly every choice i would make before I even existed, then how can anybody claim I have anything even remotely resembling free will?
Look at it this way.  Suppose there is a non-omniscient Creator.  He creates something with free will.  Now he becomes omniscient and knows what choices the Creation will make.  Did the Creation somehow lose its free will because the Creator became omnisicent?  I'm going to assume your answer is no.

Now consider an omniscient Creator.  He creates a being with free will.  Yes he knows what decisions the Creation will make, but that doesn't mean that he created it to make those exact decisions (which, in my opinion would have deprived the Creation of free will).  I think the intention of the Creator is the key.  If every last detail is worked out before the creating then there can be no free will.  It is then just an automoton responding to the Creator's programming  But if more possibilities are left open than there could be.

Another possibility: God is omnipotent so maybe he can turn his omniscience on and off and could have suspended it while he made people or suspended enough of it to give people some free will while retaining enough so that he still knew the important things.

 

blarg: