Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience)

[maverixk]

     Ok, guys, let's assume for the sake of argument, at least on this thread, that there is a God and that God did the things described in the Bible. Or Torah. Take your pick. People say that God gave us Free Will, but they also say he's omniscient. If he really gave us Free Will then that means that he's not omniscient, correct? Because if he were omniscient then he would know exactly how things would turn out based on what he did or didn't do, right? Therefore he knows what we will do based on what he does and doesn't do. So if he gave us true free will then that means he's not omniscient, and vice versa. Am I right guys?

     I'm not trying to disprove God or prove his omniscience, I'm just pointing out something I recently realized.   

[coinich]

Omniscience and omnipotence and free will aren't mutually incompatible.  Omniscience means the ability to see everything; to see all options.  This means a Judeo-Christian God can see the results ad infinitum of our infinite choices.  Seeing them doesn't invalidate or impair our ability to make them.

[maverixk]

But if he knows what's going to happen then he knows exactly what we will do based on how he made the universe. The way he made the universe determines the way we act, we may tell ourselves that we actually are making our own choices, but the way everything started determines how everything else happens. God knows everything if he is truly omniscient, then he knows all, and the result of all actions made, therefore the actions he made at the beginning determine the actions we made. So either he isn't omniscient or we don't have free will.

[Pineapple]

The way he made the universe determines the way we act

First, you have to prove determinism.
--
In my definition of "omniscient", God knows everything that will happen. So it's like this: You create a robot. The robot can make its own choices, but you know what choices it will make. You did not program it so that it would make those choices and only those choices, but you still know what choices it'll make. In the analogy, the ability to make choices can be compared to God giving humans "free will."

[maverixk]

In my definition of "omniscient", God knows everything that will happen. ."

If that is true, then wouldn't it also be true that he knows how his decisions will affect us? If he knows that, then in effect, we don't really have free will because he created the universe in a specific way, therefore causing us to act a certain way.

[OldTrees]

I have often heard the God of the Torah/Bible/Qur'an describes as being outside or beyond time. From my understanding this is akin to it originating at the end of time and then traveling back in time to start everything. Whether or not you could have abstained from posting is not affected by my knowledge that you posted because my knowledge resulted from the choice you did make not the choices you could have made.

[BluePriest]

Theres a difference between knowing what you will do and forcing you to do it.
"But if he made the world a certain way, he knew how you would react"
But he still left the choice up to you.

[Kael Hate]

Cool, someone else who believes that everything is a result of the actions before it.


There is no choice, just the things that occur and your programming that will make you react in the way you always will.

[maverixk]

Ok, OldTrees, could you rephrase that second part please?

and Blue Priest, if he made everything a certain way, therefore causing a specific reaction in us, and each specific action can only cause one reaction, then he did not leave it up to us, he left it up to himself when he made the universe.

Kael:   

[maverixk]

There is no choice, just the things that occur and your programming that will make you react in the way you always will.

It's kind of a depressing thought...but i can't think of a way around it...

[OldTrees]

Ok, OldTrees, could you rephrase that second part please?

Hypothetical example
8:00 PM I arrive in the past
8:30 PM I tell Bob that I know you (maverixk) will make a thread titled "Free Will or Omniscience? (Sorry if i misspelled omniscience)"
8:53 PM You make said thread
9:15 PM I notice said thread
9:30 PM I travel back in time

My knowledge of your choice did not invalidate your choice because my knowledge was dependent on you first making your choice before I would know it.

[Bloodshadow]

Cool, someone else who believes that everything is a result of the actions before it.

There is no choice, just the things that occur and your programming that will make you react in the way you always will.

I have always held this belief as well. But the premise of this thread is that people do have free will, which I disagree with. I don't think arguing for determinism will accomplish anything in this thread.