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Daxx

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg145723#msg145723
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 08:05:42 pm »
Inb4 taking the Génesis literally...  .-.
What criteria do you use in order to say "this is a metaphor, this is a metaphor, this is literal"?

Is the creation account in Genesis metaphorical? If so, how do you reconcile that with the other events that the bible says occurred, which nevertheless must be true for the Christian religion to have any point? Were the ten commandments metaphorically given to Moses by God? Did Jesus metaphorically feed the five thousand? Did Jesus metaphorically walk on water? Did he metaphorically die and rise from the dead?

If you start off with the assumption that certain parts of the bible are not accurate depictions of what happened because we have scientific evidence to the contrary, then what grounds do you have to claim that other things are nevertheless definitively literal? After all, the bible's entire claim to legitimacy is based on an appeal to authority - but once you start chipping away at that, where does that leave the accuracy of any other biblical account?

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg145730#msg145730
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 08:19:03 pm »
also if you seriously think that evolution and the bible can co-exist... then... well... PROVE IT!
Alright, let's do this thing.

The story of Adam and Eve starts out when God created all the animals.  He then created man.  When Adam got bored, he created Eve.  Then a snake talked to Eve, she convinced Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge, we were kicked out of Eden.  A bunch of begatting happened.  Humanity.

The story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor.

God "created" all the animals when they evolved from chemicals trapped in a phosphsolibid bilayer.  Eventually, this turned into a living organism, read "god then created man".  When Adam got bored, god created Eve, and a snake convinced her to make them both smart.  Eve represents sexual reproduction, the "snake" convinced Eve to let Adam eat her "apple".  Also:  we stopped being unintelligent.  We were then kicked out of Eden.  Eden being the water surrounding the Pangean supercontinent.  After lots of begatting (evolving), humanity existed.  Adam and Eve as a metaphor for evolution.

"But Gl1tch!" you scream, "the bible says that Adam and Eve were caught because they started wearing clothes!"
To which I reply, "The bible is a word-of-mouth document that has been passed down for centuries, with some parts removed, and then edited and re-edited and translated who knows how many times before it finally came to be what it is.  Who knows what bits the church changed during the dark ages?  If you honestly believe the bible word for word, you get what you deserve.  Ignorance."

The general concept parallels with evolution well enough, and if both sides were willing to compromise, they could co-exist.

Quote
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.  Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.  And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.  God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.  God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. 
And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."  So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.  God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.  God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.  Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.  The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.  And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.  God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.  God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.  And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. 
And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."  So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.  God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."  And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day. 
And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.  God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.  Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."  Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.  God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
In the beginning, there was just the heavens and the Earth.  Or, perhaps this really means there was just space and a huge hunk of dirt floating around in it.  Now, as I said before, you cannot believe that after all these years the supposed word of god hasn't been tampered with.  If the bible is correct, than it is likely god didn't hover over the "waters", and instead the word used to be something else.  Or perhaps "waters" is a metaphor for the gas that made up Earth before it's gravity compacted it.  And the whole "let there be light" section would probably be when the thing we call earth first started revolving around the sun.  The creation of day and night would be Earth spinning on it's axis.

Not exactly accurate, but believable enough.

In the next section, god creates a gap between the water below and the water above.  Acting under the premise the bible is really a mistranslation of evolution, we can assume the water below is magma, because gas-earth is now compacting and causing high amounts of volcanic activity, and the water above is outer space.  This would be when the preliminary atmosphere was forming.  The out-gassing of these volcanoes would be the formation of the sky.

The formation of dry ground and seas would be the comet that crashed into Earth.  It blasted huge amounts of dust into the air and cooled the planet down, causing water and land to form.  This comet ALSO brought some of the chemicals needed for life, the ones that would form phospholipid bilayers and early cells.  These would be plants and vegetation.

The fourth day is weird.  It seems to say God is making another sun.  If the bible really is true, this is probably a section that was tampered with, or maybe I just don't get the metaphor.  But the rest of it makes sense.  Light from the other stars would be first arriving, cause it took a REALLY long time to reach us, and the moon would be forming from the dust from the meteor.

The next couple days represent the next discrepancy.  While fish did evolve next, birds didn't evolve until after amphibians and reptiles, because whereas fish are cold blooded, birds are warm blooded.  But, over the next to days animals evolved, and lastly, man evolved.

Again, with an open mind, the bible and evolution CAN coexist.

Also:  The parts that were metaphors (if the bible is true) would probably be the parts man didn't understand when God told him them.  Things like evolution, the creation of the planet, and other things.

Offline Daytripper

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg145755#msg145755
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2010, 08:54:20 pm »
Quote
God "created" all the animals when they evolved from chemicals trapped in a phosphsolibid bilayer.  Eventually, this turned into a living organism, read "god then created man".  When Adam got bored, god created Eve, and a snake convinced her to make them both smart.  Eve represents sexual reproduction, the "snake" convinced Eve to let Adam eat her "apple".  Also:  we stopped being unintelligent.  We were then kicked out of Eden.  Eden being the water surrounding the Pangean supercontinent.  After lots of begatting (evolving), humanity existed.  Adam and Eve as a metaphor for evolution.
Now, of course the bible can have metaphores in it, though there are the problems pointed out earlier. This is a colourful approach though. Certainly Eden was not surrounding the Pangean supercontinent while humanity was kicked out... Around that time the late Dinos roamed the planet, not us...

It is much more likely the tree of wisdom represents the burning tree. The snake stands for lightning (fire) or life. So when humanity recieved and controlled fire from the heavens (a tree hit by lightning) they became wise... and started to control nature. So, they ''lost their innocence'' and ''had to leave Eden.''

A far less literal metaphor, but it causes less problems for you.
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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg145758#msg145758
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2010, 08:56:34 pm »
Also likely, but it does ruin the timeline.  Please note that the ages for all of the people is probably also incorrect.  Each one more likely represents a new species or stage in evolution, and as such, their ages which are described as hundred of years are more likely much longer.

I just think there's a chance that, if the bible is true, when God explained all of this man couldn't comprehend that he used to be a fish.  So instead of writing down that man-as-a-fish left the sea after it evolved some, it wrote down that man left the sea, and as it was passed down, Adam and Eve happened.

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg145773#msg145773
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2010, 09:23:40 pm »
Quote
Also likely, but it does ruin the timeline.  Please note that the ages for all of the people is probably also incorrect.  Each one more likely represents a new species or stage in evolution, and as such, their ages which are described as hundred of years are more likely much longer.
Well...

You absolutely need to forget any type of timeline. How old is the oldest civilization? Some 6000 years old? I don't know from the top of my head when the first stories were written down, but it can only have been some thousands of years ago. If we talk about evolution, then we're talking hundreds of millions of years.

The first stories were given from generation to generation orally, and only after mankind acquired speech! Oral stories had all kinds of versions and nobody minded that. The stories also grew wilder and better over the generations. Humans can therefore not have been writing down anything consistent about early history.

There is just no timeline in the early Bible. Easier is to just see those stories...as stories. Does it say in Genesis: ''And then most of the creatures God had created died, and then God made some new ones on the sixth day, along with man.''

Also there is no way to incorporate the ''massive extinction wave from Noah's flooding'' into the geological record. You always see elephants and humans and such in pictures of Noah's ark. That would suggest a very recent flooding, so it just doesn't account for many extinctions. Of course there has not been a massive recent extinction.

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg146226#msg146226
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 02:06:01 pm »
hooray! finally an intelligent discussion is the "religion" sub-forum :D

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg146249#msg146249
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2010, 03:04:34 pm »
Quote
hooray! finally an intelligent discussion is the "religion" sub-forum 
 ::)

A discussion to which you have contributed surprisingly little, being the thread starter.

You have had enough time, so why don't you support your own position? You have only stated a 1 phrase opinion and you have let others talk. What you said to ratcharmer was not even about the subject.
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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg216410#msg216410
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2010, 03:54:55 pm »
I am a practicing christian, yet i do not believe in "intelligent design" in fact, the pope himself said that you can take everything in the "Genesis" book of the bible with a grain of salt, so i think what is written in there about god creating the world has more symbolic meaning than anything.
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Destiny

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg216420#msg216420
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2010, 04:33:44 pm »
Alright, evolutionists. Here's the little bit where you realize that you're wrong.

You would agree that matter cannot come from nowhere because you don't believe in any supernatural forces. Well then, you say there was a big bang that created everything in time. To have a big bang, you need something to go bang, correct? Well, well did that come from? I thought that you believed that no supernatural forces existed. So there can't be a big bang. Another thing, is that there can't be millions of years. Salt grows in the oceans every day. If the earth was millions of years old, we could basically walk across the ocean because of all the salt. No joke.

And so, you are wrong. You can't argue with that logic.

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg216425#msg216425
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2010, 04:41:40 pm »
Quote
Also likely, but it does ruin the timeline.  Please note that the ages for all of the people is probably also incorrect.  Each one more likely represents a new species or stage in evolution, and as such, their ages which are described as hundred of years are more likely much longer.
Well...

You absolutely need to forget any type of timeline. How old is the oldest civilization? Some 6000 years old? I don't know from the top of my head when the first stories were written down, but it can only have been some thousands of years ago. If we talk about evolution, then we're talking hundreds of millions of years.

The first stories were given from generation to generation orally, and only after mankind acquired speech! Oral stories had all kinds of versions and nobody minded that. The stories also grew wilder and better over the generations. Humans can therefore not have been writing down anything consistent about early history.

There is just no timeline in the early Bible. Easier is to just see those stories...as stories. Does it say in Genesis: ''And then most of the creatures God had created died, and then God made some new ones on the sixth day, along with man.''  

Also there is no way to incorporate the ''massive extinction wave from Noah's flooding'' into the geological record. You always see elephants and humans and such in pictures of Noah's ark. That would suggest a very recent flooding, so it just doesn't account for many extinctions. Of course there has not been a massive recent extinction.





Tell me, have you ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? People found them near 4,000 years ago and they were the books of the bible. They looked at the new bible and saw that they were exactly the same through all those years. Now would you still like to say that?

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg216543#msg216543
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2010, 07:05:46 pm »
mistranslation.
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Destiny

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Re: evolution vs the bible https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10483.msg216740#msg216740
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2010, 10:36:42 pm »
Read my first post. That's proof enough.

 

anything
blarg: