Evolution Questions

[Daxx]

I am, however, this skeptical about theories people push on me and beliefs that would require drastic change in my life.

I kind of derailed a bit there, but really, rethink what you're saying: No theory would ever change your life as drastically as you're making it out to be.

Except, interestingly enough, religion itself.

Think about it. If it were conclusively proved that there were a being which was supremely powerful, which commanded people to worship it, and which was well known for being a vengeful genocidal tyrant, you'd do it, right? Especially if you knew you had eternal paradise or eternal punishment in the balance. Plus, you'd have to throw everything you knew about the universe out the window since supernatural effects would violate any conclusions we could draw about the world from testing. Following religious law is not easy; virtually everyone who is religious picks and chooses the bits they like from the laws of their own religion so that they don't make their lives too difficult.

Being skeptical about any idea is sensible, but religion (general term) doesn't get a free pass. It makes outlandish claims about the world with no actual evidence to back it up. In fact, many of those claims go against what we already know about the universe. So if you are as much of a skeptic as you claim to be, PoLkaTulK, you need to seriously reexamine why you believe what you do.

[BluePriest]

Why not instead of making ridiculous open ended claims, you actually give examples.

[OldTrees]

I am, however, this skeptical about theories people push on me and beliefs that would require drastic change in my life.

I kind of derailed a bit there, but really, rethink what you're saying: No theory would ever change your life as drastically as you're making it out to be.

Except, interestingly enough, religion itself.

One of the parts of a Religion is a set of beliefs about morality.
Beliefs about morality dictate which actions you may/must do.
A change in beliefs about morality change which actions you may/must do.
Therefore gaining faith in a new religion (either from secularism or from another religion) changes you beliefs about which actions you may/must do and thus may change your life.

Now such change does not have to be drastic. Some beliefs are universally or nigh universally held even if the reason for those normative beliefs differ. People may disagree about what murder is but they all agree definitionally that murder is immoral.

So while changes in your philosophy or faith can cause changes in your beliefs about morality and those changes can drastically affect your lifestyle, it is unlikely for the change to actually be that big unless you had a radical change of thought (Kantian to Utilitarian for example).

[BluePriest]

I know it wasnt intentional, but that was a misquote. I wasnt referring to you, I was referring to the poster directly before me. Although it is nice to have your view on it (even though it still never gave specifics  -murder, but just lowered the generalization.

[OldTrees]

I know it wasnt intentional, but that was a misquote. I wasnt referring to you, I was referring to the poster directly before me. Although it is nice to have your view on it (even though it still never gave specifics  -murder, but just lowered the generalization.

I know you weren't referring to me. I was giving a reasonable and less aggressive towards religion version of that post. It is true that I did not give specifics. (or did I? Kantian -> Utilitarian)

I quoted you responding to Daxx and I responded to both of you.

Did I cut out the part you were referring to? I hope that I did not misquote you that way. If I did please tell me and I will apologize and fix it.

[BluePriest]

When I said misquoted, I meant you quoted me as if i was responding to something I wasnt responding to.

[OldTrees]

When I said misquoted, I meant you quoted me as if i was responding to something I wasnt responding to.

I apologize. I intended the post to be referring to your post which I thought was referring to the 1st paragraph of Daxx's post. I have removed the misquote. Sorry for the mistake.

[BluePriest]

When I said misquoted, I meant you quoted me as if i was responding to something I wasnt responding to.

I apologize. I intended the post to be referring to your post which I thought was referring to the 1st paragraph of Daxx's post. I have removed the misquote. Sorry for the mistake.

Its no problem, I wasnt offended/angered or anything like that, I just wanted to be clear (which I should have quoted Daxx to remove all doubt lol. So i take a big part of the blame for that.

[Daytripper]

I think we lost the topic mostly. But really it is a simple matter. I can't see what is unclear.

It's fine if you believe in God and in evolution, or one of the two, if you must. (I know all variations)

If you're a Christian, you can still be either pro or against abortion. Again I know both, though I'm not sure of any contra abortion atheists/humanists. There may well be people who are sceptical of just any random abortion, such as myself.

Conclusion: You can connect your version of Christianity with other beliefs, but you did that yourself. Other people have yet other interpretations. It's not nearly as uniform and clear cut as you think, even among Christians. Christian dogma is an exception in the world, rather than the norm. You should see if Asian religions have these strict interpretations for a bit. 

[Daxx]

Why not instead of making ridiculous open ended claims, you actually give examples.

Which claims in particular? I'm happy to provide examples and citations, but that post was rather general so I'm not sure which bits you're referring to.

So while changes in your philosophy or faith can cause changes in your beliefs about morality and those changes can drastically affect your lifestyle, it is unlikely for the change to actually be that big unless you had a radical change of thought (Kantian to Utilitarian for example).

I guess it depends what the actual change is; changing from one mainstream atheistic philosophy to another isn't likely to make much difference. Changing from LaVeyan Satanism to Baptist Fundamentalism or Orthodox Judaism might change your lifestyle extraordinarily, though.

[BluePriest]

Think about it. If it were conclusively proved that there were a being which was supremely powerful, which commanded people to worship it, and which was well known for being a vengeful genocidal tyrant, you'd do it, right? Especially if you knew you had eternal paradise or eternal punishment in the balance. Plus, you'd have to throw everything you knew about the universe out the window since supernatural effects would violate any conclusions we could draw about the world from testing. Following religious law is not easy; virtually everyone who is religious picks and chooses the bits they like from the laws of their own religion so that they don't make their lives too difficult.

Being skeptical about any idea is sensible, but religion (general term) doesn't get a free pass. It makes outlandish claims about the world with no actual evidence to back it up. In fact, many of those claims go against what we already know about the universe. So if you are as much of a skeptic as you claim to be, PoLkaTulK, you need to seriously reexamine why you believe what you do.

emphasis added

[Daxx]

emphasis added

Thanks.

which was well known for being a vengeful genocidal tyrant

I didn't reference a specific deity here, but the one we're the most familiar with is Jehovah so it's probably easiest to use him as an example. Here are a few sample verses that I was able to dig up quickly.

Vengeful:

Nahum 1:2 A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies.

Deuteronomy 32:41-43 I will sharpen my lightning-like sword, and my hand will grasp hold of the weapon of judgment; I will execute vengeance on my foes, and repay those who hate me! I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword will devour flesh - the blood of the slaughtered and captured, the chief of the enemy's leaders!'" Cry out, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge his servants' blood; he will take vengeance against his enemies, and make atonement for his land and people.

Psalm 94:1 O LORD, the God who avenges! O God who avenges, reveal your splendor!

Genocidal:

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy.

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 ...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you...

Jehovah also kills children for very little reason, advocates and/or tolerates rape, and is generally a dick to everyone except his chosen people, to whom he is a dick less of the time (but still punishes them for transgressions every now and again just to make it clear that he is still in charge).

Plus, you'd have to throw everything you knew about the universe out the window since supernatural effects would violate any conclusions we could draw about the world from testing.

We can logically determine things about the world only because we presume a number of things about the way the world works. If you introduce a supernatural element (which is defined as being capable of performing acts that violate what we know about how the world works) then by definition those assumptions are incorrect, which means that we need to revise every scientific theory to take into account the fact that we are less confident that those results tell us anything about how the real world works. For example, all the mountains of evidence that we've collected to determine the age of the Earth would have to be chucked out. We would be required (most likely on pain of burning for eternity) to accept the explanations that God has given us instead.

virtually everyone who is religious picks and chooses the bits they like from the laws of their own religion so that they don't make their lives too difficult.

To start with, that's why there are things called doctrinal differences, and why sects split over them.

Let's take a look at religious law. Do you allow women to talk in church? Do you eat shellfish? Do you operate machinery (includes light switches!), buy or sell, or do any other business on the Sabbath? Have you ever lent money with interest (includes virtually all bank savings accounts). Do you stone adulterers? Do you stone rape survivors who refuse to marry their rapists? Do you kill homosexuals?  Most societies have moved beyond religious law.

Other doctrinal points, most revolve around the literalism of the bible: Do you believe in creationism? Most christians don't (we've been over this in a previous thread), and believe in "theistic evolution". Do you believe in transubstantiation? Do you believe that the rapture and tribulation will literally happen as described in Revelation?

Honestly trying to claim that people don't pick and choose from their religion makes you look ridiculous and naive.

In fact, many of those claims go against what we already know about the universe.

Well, let's go back to some of the previous points raised. Creationism is essentially wrong, as judged against the wealth of interrelated evidence we have about the age of the Earth through geology, astronomy, archaeology and archeoanthropology, evolutionary science, and so on. It's not like there is a single point of evidence which underpins the whole idea - every single natural phenomenon we could consult to check confirms it with not a single piece of evidence suggesting that Creationism is true.

Claims about the existence of a soul have yet to ever be substantiated. We've gone over this in a previous thread, but all the evidence points towards a deterministic and materialistic view of the universe rather than outlandish claims made by bronze-age mystics who didn't know the slightest thing about biology or neuroscience.

The bible is also directly wrong in some of its references to ancient history. Conflating and inventing historical events due to the garbling of oral transmission, not to mention the canonical version of biblical events being contradicted by various non-canonical sources which were only left out due to conflicts and political reasons.

I could go on, but I won't. Honestly, do you live with your head in the sand? I know you've never been able to rebut any of my criticisms along these lines in the past, but yet you still keep making the same points. I can only assume that you just choose to ignore things which don't support your belief system.