Seeing the Similarities

[Bloodshadow]

Christians say that I'll burn in hell if I don't believe in them. That's pretty much the main reason we don't get along.

[Neopergoss]

So if I understand you guys, the main reason we can't get along is the more dogmatic elements ?  For example, it's more "No your being a good person the wrong way!  Your suppose to be a good person this way!" As opposed to "Your being a bad person, be a good person!"?

Yes, that's basically what I'm saying. Except that it's more like, "You can't be a good person unless you believe x, y, and z! Even if you commit terrible acts, you can still be a good person if you believe x, y, and z!"

[Neopergoss]

Christians say that I'll burn in hell if I don't believe in them. That's pretty much the main reason we don't get along.

Not all Christians say that. There are many Christians I consider to be quite enlightened. The Quakers are a good example, or Congregationalists. Unitarians are cool, too.

[Seiya]

I think many people feel the way you do. There is of course no universal standard of ''good'' we all agree on, but if you look around, human behaviour isn't that different. Personally I don't mind what others believe. If people want to talk about it I'm for it though.

The largest problem comes from the ends of the spectrum. Yes, you will see atheists shouting that belief in a God is irrational. I'm no fan of those either. On the other end we have Christianity and Islam, who claim their way is the only way. Believers will be rewarded, non believers will most likely be punished. This can only be avoided by accepting the prophet Jesus or Mohammed. It is not even enough to believe in a God. Christians and Muslims both believe in God, and yet they still bicker. If people believe this dogma they have a motivation to convert. Converting will help. It's also possible the believer can completely not understand there are atheists. ''Everybody knows there is a God, atheism is some kind of scam and all that.'' Now, if you were taught this mindset, it is very hard for others to reason with you.

I agree that many atheists can get too caustic and condescending. As an avowed atheist myself, I find myself echoing wise religious moralists: "Hate the deed, not the person." Similarly, I hate religion without hating the religious. I can't think of religion without thinking about people divided against each other for petty reasons and large, evil institutions like the Church of Scientology or the Catholic Church. Try watching the documentary Deliver Us from Evil and see if you can keep yourself from thinking of the Catholic Church as evil.

I take a little offense to your crusade against religion.  Belief in God or Jesus isn't a wishful thinking fairytale/eat the lotus/drink the Kool-Aid deal.  It's not about being divisive or railing against people who are different.  I am a Christian.  I don't claim that my way is the only way.  I believe in a fair, just God.  Personally, I have no problem treating all people the way I would want to be treated.  That's the basis.  Being a good person.  The conclusion involving Jesus' Resurrection, Heaven, and the Intersession of the Holy Spirit are purely matters of faith.  If you believe it, you do.  If you don't you don't.  However, this doesn't stop people from treating each other as they should.

Christians say that I'll burn in hell if I don't believe in them. That's pretty much the main reason we don't get along.

No I don't say that, and many of us would agree with me.  We get along fine on the Internet, as do you and jmdt.  I am sorry that your perception of Christianity is that of fundamentalists.  Not all Christians take the ideology to the nth degree.  Please don't judge me, as I do not judge you. 

[Ekki]

We can get along, but we are all different. We all have different visions of the world, of what is good and bad and all that stuff. I believe the only "bad" thing out there is the dogma. We're all different, why we should believe in the same thing?
I see the whole energy of the Universe as a God. "God is in all of us", "matter is only another form of energy", well, you get it, that's how I see it.
There is always room for discussion because discussion is good. The bad thing is the mind-closing that just reject others, and then those "others" reject more people and then you have war and all that... You can apply it to politics if you want: "why don't the candidates get all along if they are supposed to help the country?" ^see the reasoning up there^
Maybe if we could respect others instead of rejecting them, things would be easier...
As for the similarities in religions, I guess it's humans' societies nature, maybe a human society with other values would have had less possibilities to survive. There are more factors, but we can't deny that that has its influence.

[Seiya]

Krathos, I'm not directing this at your belief about energy and God.  I'm directing this at the concept of people not getting along.

It's perfectly conceivable AND FAIR TO EXPECT all people to get along.  Though different cultures value different ideas, they are still part of the whole, human race.  That is enough to believe in unity and goodwill for the fellow man/woman.  Just because you have a different belief about something doesn't stop me from respecting you.

[Ekki]

Huh, true. I thought it the other way around. Fix'd.

[Bloodshadow]

I consider God to be the Absolute Objective Truth beyond all the veils and facades of perception. I believe that the ultimate goal of science is to discover this God. For me, God is an omnipresent state of existence rather than an omniscient and omnipotent being.

Christians say that I'll burn in hell if I don't believe in them. That's pretty much the main reason we don't get along.

No I don't say that, and many of us would agree with me.  We get along fine on the Internet, as do you and jmdt.  I am sorry that your perception of Christianity is that of fundamentalists.  Not all Christians take the ideology to the nth degree.  Please don't judge me, as I do not judge you. 

I remember a certain individual in this forum who held this attitude that I despise so much. I got pissed enough at him that I sent him a flame PM. However, I understand that most Christians are reasonable, or at least the ones in this forum are.

I think my issue with Christianity started when I first immigrated to Canada. They offered to teach English, which was nice, but they constantly tried to convert me and my friends to their side. And then occasionally I get those sickeningly idealistic Christian pamphlets saying that if we all just believe, then Christ will just come and solve world hunger, disease, and all other problems. The most irritating part was where the lion was living in harmony with the rabbits, which totally goes against the natural order of things; it's certainly not sinful for predators to eat prey.

[Daytripper]

I take a little offense to your crusade against religion.  Belief in God or Jesus isn't a wishful thinking fairytale/eat the lotus/drink the Kool-Aid deal.  It's not about being divisive or railing against people who are different.  I am a Christian.  I don't claim that my way is the only way.  I believe in a fair, just God.  Personally, I have no problem treating all people the way I would want to be treated.  That's the basis.  Being a good person.  The conclusion involving Jesus' Resurrection, Heaven, and the Intersession of the Holy Spirit are purely matters of faith.  If you believe it, you do.  If you don't you don't.  However, this doesn't stop people from treating each other as they should.

Not sure who you were replying to, since you made a layered quote. Maybe it was the second one, in which case I'm just rambling. Personally I never said religion is wishful thinking. If you believe it then you do. Who knows, one of us must be right.

Consider that by your reply it is obvious you do not believe in Christian dogma. As I said it, you are not at the end of the spectrum. The way you said it, I don't think anyone could have a problem with what you believe. No, I am talking about the ''accept the whole package or you are a living dead person'' Christians. I've seen quite a few of those and I think that is just too bad.

[Neopergoss]

I take a little offense to your crusade against religion.  Belief in God or Jesus isn't a wishful thinking fairytale/eat the lotus/drink the Kool-Aid deal.  It's not about being divisive or railing against people who are different.  I am a Christian.  I don't claim that my way is the only way.  I believe in a fair, just God.  Personally, I have no problem treating all people the way I would want to be treated.  That's the basis.  Being a good person.  The conclusion involving Jesus' Resurrection, Heaven, and the Intersession of the Holy Spirit are purely matters of faith.  If you believe it, you do.  If you don't you don't.  However, this doesn't stop people from treating each other as they should.

Christians say that I'll burn in hell if I don't believe in them. That's pretty much the main reason we don't get along.

No I don't say that, and many of us would agree with me.  We get along fine on the Internet, as do you and jmdt.  I am sorry that your perception of Christianity is that of fundamentalists.  Not all Christians take the ideology to the nth degree.  Please don't judge me, as I do not judge you.

I'm truly sorry if I offended you. I certainly didn't mean to start a "crusade against religion"; I was just trying to express my personal opinion. I understand that there are many Christians who don't believe that all nonbelievers will burn in Hell. In fact, see above. I really like Congregationalists, and Quakerism has affected me very personally. Unitarianism seems cool, too. There are plenty of moderates in most mainstream sects, too, and I really appreciate that, trust me.

The problem for me is that it's still based on what I see as a lie. Once you decide that belief doesn't need a rational foundation, you invite all sorts of craziness. No matter how many religious people are moderates, religious belief will always compel some people to make irrational decisions based on irrational beliefs. I don't think I need to list examples; there are plenty in other threads, and everyone should be familiar with them by now. If people never did crazy things in the name of religion, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I don't judge you, and I appreciate that you don't judge me 

[Neopergoss]

That's the basis.  Being a good person.

Thank you for saying that. I think if everyone could agree that this basic message far overshadows any particular dogma, we would live in a much better world. In fact, I really like the deeper message of Christianity about self-sacrifice and struggle against authority, but that gets hopelessly obscured most of the time. The people that I admire most reflect what Jesus did in the Christian bible to a great extent.