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Offline KuuTopic starter

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Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257131#msg257131
« on: January 25, 2011, 08:09:42 pm »
I just had some questions about evolution. This is not me intending to make a debate out of my disagreements with evolution, but merely a small (and probably futile) attempt to understand the ideas behind evolution.

The main evidence I have heard for evolution is the evidence in DNA. This "evidence" to me seems pretty weak. What I have heard is that human DNA has much in common with chimpanzee DNA. This seems to basically be the argument that similar things must come from each other, which makes no sense (to me). Also, I think the similarities might mean something else. Let's take a look at some paintings by Van Gogh:

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIY5CtDHJaQ5Afe9tYtBVpyWMKv9DQ8o4ms7Y1E0H1AjPnmBqtpw)

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSskmDkPrYJcYopQkPaBdYNA1oh_t2qb2ihCCPYgh5N3MUMpsMj)

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTdgU6xeru9HsoLn3Jrxe-Hd8uIPkKryyYRwpCJ_jXWCYAwWlmd8w)

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqDFhYbelxhN3GI-hb6XF7xKMAVtxMwCY8QoxvjwvViQnmEoDdSQ)

Now, they are all similar are they not? They are different of course, but the styles are similar and the subjects are similar. Creation, to me, seems to be the idea that these images were painted while evolution seems to be the idea that some celestial force of an elephant accidentally ran by a canvas with some paint above it, knocked the paint onto the canvas, and then the paint spread in such a way that it made these beautiful paintings. It makes sense to me that I should be similar to a chimpanzee since we were both created by the same maker.

Also, I think I should say now that I don't want to here people flaming about intelligent design, I'm really only interested in answers to my questions, and I will lock the thread if there are flaming issues.

Another thing that deters me from evolution is how it conveniently takes billions of years that we will not witness to happen. If I said you should believe in God and God performs miracles and then took a penny and said; "Watch, God will use a miracle to make this penny turn into a quarter, you just have to wait 20 billion years", I imagine you would not be inclined to follow this God that takes billions of years to perform miracles and expects you to just believe it will happen in the meantime.

The next thing that deters me from evolution is the people who believe in it and preach it. Many are rather snobbish and say that to reject evolution is to reject intelligence. Many non-religious people complain about how pushy religious people are and how snobby they can be with their "morals" and their "God", and this is the same way I feel with evolutionists who claim evolution is a scientific law and say you are stupid if you don't believe it.

This brings me to my last point. Science works by observing. Science basically is study and observation and applied science is using the knowledge we gain from the scientific method. Thus the only way we can show evolution to be true is by observing it happening, not by making conjectures about the past based on similarities in the present. Evolution is still in the theory state, not the fact state. If an evolutionists comes to me and shows me an evolution of one species into another then I will believe in evolution. In the meantime I am not inclined or obligated to wait billions of years to see it.





(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUqrY6y2l4VUWbKRcsZl-N1qi_xI-0VGg4khxQPzlFy7HQRZRjsA)



(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxcsp6Z6JsMpyHcgB03rHc1xVFhv1qasJgQ9hmuT1gtkINRAdX)

Offline EvaRia

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257182#msg257182
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 09:13:53 pm »
I just had some questions about evolution. This is not me intending to make a debate out of my disagreements with evolution, but merely a small (and probably futile) attempt to understand the ideas behind evolution.

The main evidence I have heard for evolution is the evidence in DNA. This "evidence" to me seems pretty weak. What I have heard is that human DNA has much in common with chimpanzee DNA. This seems to basically be the argument that similar things must come from each other, which makes no sense (to me). Also, I think the similarities might mean something else. Let's take a look at some paintings by Van Gogh:

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTIY5CtDHJaQ5Afe9tYtBVpyWMKv9DQ8o4ms7Y1E0H1AjPnmBqtpw)

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSskmDkPrYJcYopQkPaBdYNA1oh_t2qb2ihCCPYgh5N3MUMpsMj)

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTdgU6xeru9HsoLn3Jrxe-Hd8uIPkKryyYRwpCJ_jXWCYAwWlmd8w)

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqDFhYbelxhN3GI-hb6XF7xKMAVtxMwCY8QoxvjwvViQnmEoDdSQ)

Now, they are all similar are they not? They are different of course, but the styles are similar and the subjects are similar. Creation, to me, seems to be the idea that these images were painted while evolution seems to be the idea that some celestial force of an elephant accidentally ran by a canvas with some paint above it, knocked the paint onto the canvas, and then the paint spread in such a way that it made these beautiful paintings. It makes sense to me that I should be similar to a chimpanzee since we were both created by the same maker.

Also, I think I should say now that I don't want to here people flaming about intelligent design, I'm really only interested in answers to my questions, and I will lock the thread if there are flaming issues.

Another thing that deters me from evolution is how it conveniently takes billions of years that we will not witness to happen. If I said you should believe in God and God performs miracles and then took a penny and said; "Watch, God will use a miracle to make this penny turn into a quarter, you just have to wait 20 billion years", I imagine you would not be inclined to follow this God that takes billions of years to perform miracles and expects you to just believe it will happen in the meantime.

The next thing that deters me from evolution is the people who believe in it and preach it. Many are rather snobbish and say that to reject evolution is to reject intelligence. Many non-religious people complain about how pushy religious people are and how snobby they can be with their "morals" and their "God", and this is the same way I feel with evolutionists who claim evolution is a scientific law and say you are stupid if you don't believe it.

This brings me to my last point. Science works by observing. Science basically is study and observation and applied science is using the knowledge we gain from the scientific method. Thus the only way we can show evolution to be true is by observing it happening, not by making conjectures about the past based on similarities in the present. Evolution is still in the theory state, not the fact state. If an evolutionists comes to me and shows me an evolution of one species into another then I will believe in evolution. In the meantime I am not inclined or obligated to wait billions of years to see it.





(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUqrY6y2l4VUWbKRcsZl-N1qi_xI-0VGg4khxQPzlFy7HQRZRjsA)



(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxcsp6Z6JsMpyHcgB03rHc1xVFhv1qasJgQ9hmuT1gtkINRAdX)

You say you have questions, but I count 1 question mark and I believe it's rhetorical.

I'd be more than happy to answer some questions, if only you ask, instead of just putting out points :)

Offline Daytripper

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257227#msg257227
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 09:49:33 pm »
I will give it a go and be a bit more constructive, why not. Someone can still explain a problem without using a question mark after all.

Similar DNA:

Sure, you can always say: ''The creator made it appear that way, also the DNA is similar.'' There is more to DNA than just that, though. There are actually many ''lower'' animals on the scale with more chromosome pairs than humans. Why would anyone do that? It doesn't seem to give a more advanced creature. Also DNA is more similar if species are closer related. In other words very similar looking animals can have very different DNA if they are further apart on the family tree. It actually supports common descent, rather than the ''similar design/similar DNA idea.'' There is plenty to say, but I'm not a biologist, won't pretend to be.

Takes long, will only accept instant evolution from fish to reptile:

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. No one is asking you to ''follow evolution.'' It isn't a church. Consider the skewed demand for evidence when it comes to evolution. Are you this sceptical of everything? If no one saw a criminal jack a car, he isn't guilty if the car is in his garage?

There is plenty of evidence for evolution. We can see speciation over a small period of time in labs, especially with small organisms. There is DNA. There are fossils. How exactly did they get there? Even Cuvier, who knew nothing about DNA, concluded from the fossil record species got wiped out and had to be replaced with new ones. In other words, non Biblical staggered creation waves. That would not even fly now, since there are so many different fossils of some animals (horse/whale to name a few) it would take over ten staggered creations for just one animal. (Talking about a small period of time here, say 50-60 million years)

People who believe evolution is true act in a condescending manner. 

Well of course they do. If you enter the debate with a negative position, regarding the most solid scientific theory in the word, what did you think would happen? If you were ever caught in an avalanche of evolutionary books, it woud take weeks to find your body.

That is it. You can act as if evolution were something controversial, but it isn't. Probably you won't agree. That is fine, but in scientific debate, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Regards,

Day

 
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Offline KuuTopic starter

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257322#msg257322
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 11:26:39 pm »
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You say you have questions, but I count 1 question mark and I believe it's rhetorical.

I'd be more than happy to answer some questions, if only you ask, instead of just putting out points  :)
 :)

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I will give it a go and be a bit more constructive, why not. Someone can still explain a problem without using a question mark after all.
Thank you.

Quote
There is more to DNA than just that, though. There are actually many ''lower'' animals on the scale with more chromosome pairs than humans. Why would anyone do that? It doesn't seem to give a more advanced creature.
I don't quite see your point.

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Also DNA is more similar if species are closer related.
This argument seems circular. Something like: we know that evolution happens because the DNA in some animals is similar and that means that evolution happens because we know that evolution makes similar DNA.

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Takes long, will only accept instant evolution from fish to reptile:

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. No one is asking you to ''follow evolution.'' It isn't a church.
But they are asking me to not believe in religion because of the unproven theory of evolution.

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Are you this sceptical of everything?
Of course not. If you told me you were wearing a blue shirt right now I would not be skeptical and would not demand evidence. I am, however, this skeptical about theories people push on me and beliefs that would require drastic change in my life.

Quote
If no one saw a criminal jack a car, he isn't guilty if the car is in his garage?
He is guilty. I am not saying that evolution is false because it supposedly takes so long, I am saying that putting faith in something that I haven't seen proved and that takes billions of years to prove is no more appealing to me than sitting in ignorance.

"Peace if possible, truth at all costs." - Martin Luther

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We can see speciation over a small period of time in labs, especially with small organisms.
Do you mean micro-evolution? Adaptation? Isn't adaptation different than having one species and having the species change into another species entirely?

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There are fossils. How exactly did they get there? Even Cuvier, who knew nothing about DNA, concluded from the fossil record species got wiped out and had to be replaced with new ones. In other words, non Biblical staggered creation waves. That would not even fly now, since there are so many different fossils of some animals (horse/whale to name a few) it would take over ten staggered creations for just one animal. (Talking about a small period of time here, say 50-60 million years)
Sorry... I don't quite get it. I'm kind of bad at science.

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You can act as if evolution were something controversial, but it isn't. Probably you won't agree.
It depends on what you mean by controversial. I don't think it's controversial, I just think it's false.

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That is fine, but in scientific debate, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Heavens no I wouldn't! As I said before I'm pretty bad at science so that's why I am asking all you smart evolutionists to help me.

Thank you for your time and for your well spelled and thought out replies that included proper grammar and adequate responses to the questions.

Offline EvaRia

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257353#msg257353
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 12:06:04 am »
Well, if you want, I can try to answer some of you problems then, but don't blame me if I don't understand exactly what it is you are asking.

First off, I'll do a small explanation in the ideas and logic behind evolution.

Basically, every organism has DNA. DNA is essentially a code inside the nuclei of your cells that instructs on what proteins to create. This is what gives the main physical identity of a species.

DNA is made up of chromosome pairs. These chromosomes contain genes that define particular traits from each individual.
These genes pass down through generations, making each generation slightly different from the last.

The next important point is that DNA is not perfect. Small mutations in the DNA can happen that will make the individual slightly different from others in the species. This creates the possibility of change within a species that allow it to progress.

Now that we establish this, the most important idea for explaining evolution is natural selection.

What natural selection is basically saying is that when 2 different individuals are in a certain environment, one will have the traits that make more likely to survive. Because of this advantage, that one will have a higher chance of reproducing offspring with the same advantage, and the one without the advantage is more likely to die out entirely.

To give more of an example, I'll use a picture.

The picture starts out blank. You add a drop of blue. The drop begins to spread and grow. Then a mutation happens that makes a small part of the blue a more purplish colour. The purple also begins to grow. Then an eraser comes in that will only erase blue from the picture. While a lot of it gets erased, it is offset by the growth, however, the unaffected purple continues to grow at a faster rate than blue because of this. More mutations happen, and more colours appear. some of them need to fight more efficient erasers, while others get a free pass. Eventually, the colours that come out on top will be the results of long evolution.

I hope this helps, feel free to ask if you have any more questions.
Do you follow? If not, feel free to ask.

On to the next point. You feel disinclined to believe in something that takes too long to happen. I understand that. But nobody is forcing you to believe in evolution. The important thing is to understand that. God is different, because religion is a powerful thing where whether you believe it or not can make a significant impact on your life. Evolution is take it or leave it, it makes no big deal either way. If it's simply to unbelievable, then it's okay. But there is still some evidence to support it, and that evidence is enough for a lot of people, and that is also something to understand.

Religion is frowned upon by the people in favor of evolution, because there is little to no evidence in favor of a god in their minds, while evolution has a large amount of evidence and logic backed up by what they know. If you reallly believe it's false though, pay no heed. It's okay to stick with what you believe in, as long as you know for yourself that it's what you truly believe.

On the last point, science is not only a matter of observing, but also deducting. By carefully applying logic, calculations, and evidence, scientists are trying to eliminate as much theories as they can to get to the one that withstands the most attempts of disapproval. While we have not directly observed evolution happening, we have discovered evidence in favor of it, and that evidence allows us to create a theory that favors the most evidence.

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257403#msg257403
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 01:10:12 am »
I think the answers to many of your questions can be found here (probably not the "how come I find evolutionists to be preachy?" "question") and explained more clearly and by more qualified people than me. 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Evolution is a huge theory, and we know it's true not because there's one short, easy to explain smoking gun but because there are mounds of evidence supporting it in tons of different ways.  It's also not entirely simple to understand.  What that means is that for those who are inclined to disbelieve evolution, it takes a fair amount of work to understand the nature of the evidence for evolution.  I encourage you to do so.  Even if it doesn't convince you, you will be better informed.

Way too short answers to your questions:

    The DNA evidence comes in many forms, but the idea isn't just that DNA looks similar from animal to animal (or plant to plant, etc.), but that it looks similar in some very specific ways, but not in some other ways, all of which are what you would expect if life had evolved from a common ancestor.  Very specific kinds of similarities, like those caused by retroviruses, occur in exactly the pattern you would predict if evolution were true.  There is really a ton of stuff along this line of thought, and it's not just confined to DNA, so I encourage you to check it out.  There are lots of books on the subject.  Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne both have books out that are very clear and accessible if you are so inclined ("The Greatest Show on Earth" and "Why Evolution is True," respectively) and I'm sure there are plenty more.There is an important difference between paintings and life forms.  Life forms reproduce, and they reproduce with heredity (which means that their offspring inherit some of their characteristics).  Without these, evolution doesn't work, which is why paintings do not evolve.Evolution has occurred over billions of years, but you can see it happen much faster than that.  Here's a list of examples of speciation that has been observed in a single lifetime.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
And here's the wikipedia article on a fascinating experiment performed by Richard Lenski that observed e. coli evolving the ability to digest citrate, which required three separate mutations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experimentI'm sorry you are put off by some people who believe in evolution.  I suggest you try to ignore your personal feelings when trying to evaluate the truth of their claim.  I know this is sometimes hard.The term theory when used in this context is often misunderstood.  Used in this context, the word theory simply refers to a body of knowledge.  Evolution is a body of knowledge.  Again, I'll refer you to the wikipedia page on scientific theory, but you can find your own source if you would prefer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory[/list]
I hope this has been helpful to you.

Offline doublecross

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257406#msg257406
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 01:14:30 am »
I think an interesting sub-topic is whether or not you consider evolution to be species based or gene based.


Similarly, memetic evolution should be discussed here.
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Offline Daytripper

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257651#msg257651
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 09:01:44 am »
I wasn't expecting this, but ok.  :o

In science, everything backs each other up. DNA confirms the theory of evolution. Species migration? It comfirms plate tectonics in geology. Relative dating by guide fossils? Is confirmed by radiometric dating. (Yes, that is right, no one even needs radiometric dating to prove evolution, but it's nice to have.)

Let me make it simple. There is anatomy. Homologues structures denote the family tie. For example, we have the shark. The shark is unique in many ways because of the low and flexible mouth, the spinal cord that extends upwise at the back, the fins, the absence of the swimming blatter, the absence of real bone, the skin teeth, etc etc.  So we can all see something is a shark right? A pelagic shark looks way different from a benthic shark, yet it is a shark. Before people knew much about the details of evolution, they still knew the shark and the ray are related, based on very specific anatomy. Look at the structure of a ray very closely. It isn't much else than a flattened shark. These are related, and the DNA confirms it. It isn't circulair, it both says the same thing. It isn't 1 point of evidence, it is in fact 2.

Now we take the whale shark and the whale. These are very similar in appearance and in lifestyle, they are even filter feeders. Are they the same? No, in fact the whale shark is STILL a fish and the whale is an aquatic mammal. They couldn't be much more apart. I know there are better examples than this, just giving you an idea.

To the second point:

No one is asking you to accept a theory that drastically changes your life. Why would it? Religious grounds? There is nothing wrong with theistic evolution. And you are free to dissmiss what i say. I didn't bring it up. If you ask me, I will tell you what I know.

Now, the thief with a stolen car in his garage is akin to the fossil record. The species must have gotten there somehow. However, species become extinct and they are also unique to the layer in which they are found. If you take one act of creation and take it from there without any way of backup, life would be near extinct or extinct now. Fact is extinction waves did happen. I see you didn't understand my last point, so let me try that again.

Guy is doing research in the ground. He finds all kinds of life in some strata, where this life is absolutely absent in the next. (For example, take the Dinosaurs.) That is odd, he thinks. Every now and then we see massive extinction waves. Must have been an act of God. So every now and then God wipes out some creatures and puts new ones in place, or there would no longer be life. No matter how you put it, this is staggered creation and not one act of creation.

These ideas were later refined. Extinction waves happened, but not in the way Cuvier described it. There is a model of at least 11 steps that takes us from the land animal to the whale. 11 divine modifications in that period? Looks like a lot. And no, it is not circular reasoning. The whale is unique and especially the inner ear, which we do not find in other mammals.

We can see how difficult it is to defend non evolutionary theories. If God did zap the whale 11 times to make it look like something else, it is still evolution. The question is not if evolution happened, but how.

To that other point, which I had neglected: (I blame it on lack of coffee)

It is true observed evolution must be extremly limited. We may be able to speed up the process, but you can't expect much in a few decades. It is possible to isolate 2 groups of the same species in a lab. If they reproduce fast, like fruit flies or moths, you can isolate them for several generations. It has been demonstrated if we do this, most likely nothing will happen. Now repeat the experiment, but put one group in light, the other in darkness. After the same period, the two groups will most likely refuse to interbreed. Can't always be sure, but it has worked in labs. That is speciation. Adaptation is something else. If you want to hammer the point home no one turned a fish into a reptite, noted. That is all work in progress. Right now we have the DNA and the transitional fossils.

The point is, evolution much relies on environment and competition. The best species are all occupying the best spots right now. After an extinction wave we are much more likely to see evolution, since the ecological niches open up. Of course that is all a bit of a moot point. Humans are a tiny dot on the geological time line as of now. 

I hope that helps

Day

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257674#msg257674
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 10:35:07 am »
One thing I thing that is worth noting is that micro evolution and macro evolution are not two distinctly different things. They are the same thing, just on different time scales. Basically

Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + ... + Micro Evolution = Macro Evolution

Offline Chemist

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257746#msg257746
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 02:49:20 pm »
I wrote this here post a couple of hours ago just before my connection went down.  :-X Looks like I got double "ninja'd" in the meantime.

Still, I'm putting it up in the hope that my reply to the arguments from before could help clarifying some of the points in the discussion, or something.


Daytripper I hope you don't mind if I (also?) adress the points directed against your post.

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There is more to DNA than just that, though. There are actually many ''lower'' animals on the scale with more chromosome pairs than humans. Why would anyone do that? It doesn't seem to give a more advanced creature.
I don't quite see your point.
The point was: why do you use a more complex genetic code for a creature less complex than a human?

And, speaking of the genetic code I should add: why do chicken have genes for teeth when they're apparently not using them?

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Also DNA is more similar if species are closer related.
This argument seems circular. Something like: we know that evolution happens because the DNA in some animals is similar and that means that evolution happens because we know that evolution makes similar DNA.
You should reread this argument in full. The point here was that closely related creatures implement the same "design solutions" to tackle the same problems, in contrast with creatures which are evolutionary further apart - which implement different solutions. (e.g. the bones in dolphin flippers are remarkably similar to those found in the human hand ... and very unlike shark fins. And did I mention that dolphins have lungs, like mammals do? Some marine design that is.) Evolution predicts this would be the case, hence this supports what the theory is saying.

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Takes long, will only accept instant evolution from fish to reptile:

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. No one is asking you to ''follow evolution.'' It isn't a church.
But they are asking me to not believe in religion because of the unproven theory of evolution.
You don't prove religions, nor do you prove theories. However there is this humongous difference in that a religion has no solid evidence (otherwise it wouldn't count as a religion) whereas a theory does (otherwise it wouldn't count as a (proper) theory). Evolution explains all observed evidence and every prediction it makes turns out to be right when tested. What more do you want from it?

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If no one saw a criminal jack a car, he isn't guilty if the car is in his garage?
He is guilty. I am not saying that evolution is false because it supposedly takes so long, I am saying that putting faith in something that I haven't seen proved and that takes billions of years to prove is no more appealing to me than sitting in ignorance.

"Peace if possible, truth at all costs." - Martin Luther
That "car in the garage" in our case could be the fossil record. How on Earth would you go about explaining that without evolution? Deity put it there to test our faith?

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We can see speciation over a small period of time in labs, especially with small organisms.
Do you mean micro-evolution? Adaptation? Isn't adaptation different than having one species and having the species change into another species entirely?
No, it's the same thing on a different scale. Same mechanisms, same rules - just over a shorter time span. Saying otherwise is like saying "micro" gravity is keeping us on the planet, but it's the flying spaghetti monster that's moving the planets along orbits. The movement of planets may look like it's a different thing, but if you understand the underlying laws of gravity you know that we're talking about the very same phenomenon.

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There are fossils. How exactly did they get there? Even Cuvier, who knew nothing about DNA, concluded from the fossil record species got wiped out and had to be replaced with new ones. In other words, non Biblical staggered creation waves. That would not even fly now, since there are so many different fossils of some animals (horse/whale to name a few) it would take over ten staggered creations for just one animal. (Talking about a small period of time here, say 50-60 million years)
Sorry... I don't quite get it. I'm kind of bad at science.
This isn't a matter of being bad at something; its something you've never learned. There's no such thing as "being bad at" knowledge.

(The only bad practice here might be claiming that something is wrong when you know that you don't understand it in the first place.)

You may really want to read up on fossils. But in a nutshell: we find fossilised animal remains in many places all around the world. Radiometric carbon dating allows us to determine the age of any individual fossil found. When we put all our fossils together and sort them by determined age we see which animals were around on the Earth how far ago. One hundred million years ago, for instance, the Earth was dominated by dinosaurs. We know that because from the complete collection of all the 100 million year old fossils ever found we can see:
-we have lots of dinosaur fossils from back then
-dinosaurs are the biggest animals we have from that time
Of further interest is:
-there weren't many mammals around back then, only some small, rat-like ones (not like today's rats, though)
-there were no birds around back then

And when I say there is NO SINGLE 100 million year old fossil of an elephant/bear/cow/horse/chicken/falcon/ostrich/etc, I of course mean there are no older ones either. We have dozens of thousands of dinosaur fossils that old, though... The first "bigger" mammals started emerging in the record after the dinosaurs vanished some about 61 million years ago (there are no dinosaur fossils younger than that). Of course the first of those didn't look (very) much like the animals we know today, but as you look at ever younger fossils they start looking more familiar. The first bird-like fossils showed up a few million years before the extinction of the dinosaurs, but (surprise, surprise) had many reptilian features as well (they sort of looked like a bird/dinosaur crossbreed).

This is far from the only part or feature of the fossil record that supports evolution, but I suspect it should suffice for now :

The fossil record is the observed evidence. We can see that there were no elephants around 100 million years ago, but lots and lots of dinosaurs were. Evolution can explain this easily. Now how would you go about providing an explanation without it?

Offline BluePriest

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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257755#msg257755
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 03:05:20 pm »
One thing I thing that is worth noting is that micro evolution and macro evolution are not two distinctly different things. They are the same thing, just on different time scales. Basically

Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + ... + Micro Evolution = Macro Evolution
I want to pose a question related to that (and it will give me notifications to this topic as well yay!). A whole bunch of micro evolutions equal 1 macro evolution, is what youre saying correct? So there is a difference in the way that 1 is different to 100. They may both be numbers, but you cant just take nothing, and add 1 to it to get 100. It requires some work.

Now I think everyone agrees on evolution as far as the fact that things change, and adapt to their surrounding. The problem comes when you talk about origin of species. For species to have an origin, they had to have originally not existed, and so they had to have came about by chance. This is why I consider bio-genesis to be an important part of evolution, although many disagree.

Now, to someone who believes in evolution, as I pointed out earlier, the only difference between micro and macro is the amount, however, for someone who disagrees with the origin of species, micro and macro is more like a parabolic curve, where it has that certain point that it will never reach even though it will forever get closer and closer. However, in helps to keep in mind, that regardless of what the scientific definition of macro evolution is, when the avg ID proponent uses this phrase, they are using it, not in reference to a Siamese cat turning into a calico cat, but that cat turning into a dog.

Now as to theory>fact, as I have stated before in another topic, I consider this a bunch of bullcrap. A theory can be proven wrong, a fact cant. 1+1 will always equal 2. That is a fact. The paint on my wall is a beige shade. That is a fact.

You are driving down a road, so far all the houses you have seen, which are all in the same neigborhood, have all been green. You are 99% of the way down the street. You have viewed the contract that says that in this neigborhood on this street, your house has to be green. You therefor assume that the final house is green. You get to the final house, and it is....
redOh wow, they have a special contract saying that there house can be any color they want.

That final house, although all the evidence pointed to it being green, was not green.  You may say "well you didnt say that there was a special contract" and youre right I didnt. That special contract is relative to the hole in any theory that has been proven wrong.


Im not really in much of a debating mood right now, but I figured Id post this anyways.
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Re: Evolution Questions https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20255.msg257758#msg257758
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 03:15:10 pm »
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He is guilty. I am not saying that evolution is false because it supposedly takes so long, I am saying that putting faith in something that I haven't seen proved and that takes billions of years to prove is no more appealing to me than sitting in ignorance.
But the same can be applied to any religion. There are billions of people who put faith in something they haven't seen proven.
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

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