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falconbane

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg85358#msg85358
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2010, 12:00:46 am »
Maybe it's the wall of text or something, but there's some SERIOUS misinterpretation of words here.

The one that really glared me in the face is Species (and how Species A can become Species B and Species C)


A clarification of "species"
A group of organism is defined as a species when it can successfully mate and reproduce successfully throughout its lineage.
A new species when its descendants can mate with each other successfully throughout its lineage, but cannot mate with its originating species throughout its lineage.  A horse and a donkey can mate, producing a mule, but the mule is not a new species as it cannot successfully reproduce at all, even with other mules (they are effectively sterile).


A clarification of "Natural Selection"
Natural Selection represent any pressure (both positive and negative, not just negative) on a given species that causes individuals with certain traits to have increased representation within the population's gene/allele pool.  In short, the environment is part of natural selection, don't try to use it separately. 


For the love of sanity, do not use wikipedia as reference since they can be edited by anyone, anyone remember the scandal involving catholics on wikipedia at all?  It's a good source to get a clue, but not as reference (this is applied school policy in many parts of the world).  Peer-reviewed papers are more effective, even magazines like Nature, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, or other peers reviewed science magazines/papers.  Even sites like www.sciencedaily.com is better than wikipedia as they actually credit their source properly.



Here's some answers to some questions that was in the beginning, not 100% it was completely answered.

"Traditional" creature, not fossils, that are alive and well today.
Horseshoe crab, various species of fish (the most known is probably "the living fossil" coelacanths), crocodilia, etc..



As for Evolution vs Intelligent Design, there are a few (emphasis on FEW) creationists scientists (I'm using the term loosely, but I do believe a few of them qualifies as science as they actually use the scientific method as opposed to most that just claims something with non-peer review data and experiments).  And macro-evolution isn't a term we really use nowadays, it's more common to call it speciation.  The term macro-evolution died off and was resurrected by creationists in their effort to be heard in a scientific forum.  Terms like divergence and speciation were more common. 

Intelligent Design vs Evolution in Embryonic State
the I.D camp can argue (and have argued) that everything is the result of one giant blueprint.  However, it does not explain why certain lineages have their embryos features that are not presented in the offspring or adult form.  Human embryos have features of gills, fins, claws, etc... as do other primates.  However, embryos from insect lack these features.  If it is indeed intelligent design, wouldn't be more accurate that other primate should not have similar irregularities to human in embryonic form (since, they believe humans are "special")?  Why have separate blueprints for different creatures if the design is so "intelligent"?  Although these feature does not prove definitively that human evolved from fish (and whatever else other features we have), it would at least be plausibly argue that we can diverge into an aquatic species should natural selection take its course.  In the case of creationists, they would argue that we would not since "humans were created in god's image".  Let me clarify, not all creationists hold this view, however, enough of them view their religious scriptures as "facts" and attempted to use it as such.  This is one of the primary reason why creationists are viewed as ignorant and presumptuous by the scientific community at large.


Edit:  In adding to Artois' comment, religion have rarely complimented science.  Science would have advanced hundreds of years further if it wasn't for the suppression of religion.     

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg110207#msg110207
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2010, 05:23:28 am »
Ahhh, I believe ill come back to this thread for fun. I now agree on the biological foundation of evolution is sound as far as assumptions go (although, since we are talking about past times, I still say its impossible to prove, and I dont agree with the fact that just because something can happen it will)

Im tired of talking abuot biology. Ill need to study more things before I go back to that. I want to take a blog post I did a while ago and put it here.

This is talking about a book I picked up in the library called Why evolution is true, by Jerry. A. Coyne. I started off quoting it, and since this was just one of my blog points, I didnt go into detail for all things, and I have a feeling people here will tear up the post. but its more for fun than anything. Just to see responses.Be careful of the " " when reading it. I do that when quoting the book.
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“The story of life on earth is written in the rocks. True, this is a history book torn and twisted, with remnants of pages scattered about, but it is there…” That is how this first chapter starts off. This sounds more like the intro to a movie about some secret cult than anything else. The evidence is horrible, and all that’s available for the fossils, is interpretation.

Before I go further, there’s a change of plans. Not only will I debunk evolution, but I am going to use evolutions own “proofs” to prove Intelligent Design (hereon referred to as ID)to be true. “…Without them (fossils), we’d have only a sketchy outline on evolution. All we could do would be to study living species and try to infer evolutionary relations through similarities in for, development, and DNA sequence. We would know, for example, that mammals are more closely related to reptiles than to amphibians. But we wouldn’t know what their common ancestors looked like.” There should be plenty of evidence without the fossils to prove evolution. For you see, with fossils, all you have is the bone structure, and nothing else. There’s no DNA, so you cant even tell if they are genetically similar, and you have no idea of the creatures development.

Get prepared. All the Darwinists know that the fossil evidence isn’t nearly enough. “The formation of fossils… requires a very specific set of circumstances.” They basically say that an animal needs to die, fall to the bottom of the ocean, and then be covered by sediments quickly. Therefore, the chance of this happening to a land animal is slim. And so, there is a reason the Darwinists cant prove it through the fossils. The book continues to say that around 17 million to 4 billion (what a wonderful estimation) species probably ever lived, and that 10 mil live today. Only 250 thousand different species have been found. That averages out to about 0.1% (the books words, not mine) “Nevertheless, we have enough evidence to give us a good idea of how evolution proceeded…” Wait.. Only .1% of the supposed fossil record (and that’s if the 4 billion is incorrect). Who in their right mind would say that .1% is enough evidence? That’s like reading the first page of a 1000 page book, and saying you have enough evidence. Even if you included the 10mil around today, out of just 1 billion, out of the possible 4 billion, that’s still just a measly 1.2% So you could read the first page, and the final 12 pages of a thousand page book, and know what happened. Or if you want more variety, a sentence from each page of a thousand page book, and the final 12 pages. If I could write a book report on that kind of info then school would be no problem. You wouldn’t even be able to tell they are from the same book with that kind of information.

It then talks about how they measure fossil age. The first one is the location of the fossils, the depth, and the law of superposition, which I wont worry about explaining this method. The following method is more my thing. Carbon-14, and U-238 dating. Carbon 14 dating the book even admits is pointless. It seems married to U-238 dating though. Now, instead of arguing against the accuracy of this dating, I am going to make things simple. From an ID’s vision though, this proves nothing. The being (God, Allah, or some other nameless being) that originally created the universe simply could have created all things in their Adult form, including the elements, therefore the half-lives would have been off. If someone wants more info that isn’t simply stating that, and want to know if I have anything else in case that theory is incorrect, then just let me know and I will make a portion devoted solely to that.
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Thats the blog, theres some monologuing that should be ignored since I didnt design it for a debate
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kalkiran

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg110222#msg110222
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2010, 05:58:25 am »
you know thats an anology? from one page maybe you could decipher the alphabet or part of the language and probabaly the sentence structure. but that doesnt mean anything because an anology maybe because of scientific method thats all they need.

I also would suggest that you start reading the book without bias because

1. although i know you read for the purpose of dissproving evolution (or something similar) he is one darwinist/scientist/man and not representitive of a whole community.

2. i think you should approach it with an open mind im not trying to make you change your beliefs but i think it would be good (for you) :)
and btw im agnostic which i think means im an atheist who wants to firmly state that he does not hate religion and is happy for everyone else to believe whatever they like.

PhuzzY LogiK

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg110256#msg110256
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2010, 07:02:36 am »
And so, there is a reason the Darwinists cant prove it through the fossils. The book continues to say that around 17 million to 4 billion (what a wonderful estimation) species probably ever lived, and that 10 mil live today. Only 250 thousand different species have been found. That averages out to about 0.1% (the books words, not mine) “Nevertheless, we have enough evidence to give us a good idea of how evolution proceeded…” Wait.. Only .1% of the supposed fossil record (and that’s if the 4 billion is incorrect). Who in their right mind would say that .1% is enough evidence? That’s like reading the first page of a 1000 page book, and saying you have enough evidence. Even if you included the 10mil around today, out of just 1 billion, out of the possible 4 billion, that’s still just a measly 1.2% So you could read the first page, and the final 12 pages of a thousand page book, and know what happened. Or if you want more variety, a sentence from each page of a thousand page book, and the final 12 pages. If I could write a book report on that kind of info then school would be no problem. You wouldn’t even be able to tell they are from the same book with that kind of information.
I don't agree with this reasoning. 

From current estimates, there are roughly 10^21 stars in the universe.  There are usually multiple planets per star, which means there are millions of billions of planets.  We only have first hand knowledge of one of these planets and observational data on less than 10 more, but does that make you doubt gravity?  Are you ready to discard astrophysics?  And yet we know far less than 0.1%.

Similarly, there are estimates that we have discovered only a fraction of plants that exist on earth today.  Are botany and biology useless then?  Should this stop us from studying and reaching conclusions about the plants we do know about?  Is photosynthesis questionable now too?

What's significant about the fossils is that 100% of that 0.1-1.2% supports evolution.  0% discredit the theory.  So, by your analogy, saying evolution is not true is like telling you to write a specific book report without even telling you what book it is on.  At least in evolution's case it has the title of the book, some information, and knows where to keep looking to find new sentences.


Quote from: kalkiran
and btw im agnostic which i think means im an atheist who wants to firmly state that he does not hate religion and is happy for everyone else to believe whatever they like.
An agnostic is typically someone who believes we can never definitively prove or disprove a higher power, so it is a moot point.  You can't really be an agnostic and atheist at the same time.  You're one or the other, and in your case you just have a "live and let live" attitude about it.

kalkiran

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg110357#msg110357
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2010, 01:19:39 pm »
yes i guess but its easier to say im agnostic and i think im closer to that anyway.

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg110388#msg110388
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2010, 02:28:32 pm »
I don't agree with this reasoning. 

From current estimates, there are roughly 10^21 stars in the universe.  There are usually multiple planets per star, which means there are millions of billions of planets.  We only have first hand knowledge of one of these planets and observational data on less than 10 more, but does that make you doubt gravity?  Are you ready to discard astrophysics?  And yet we know far less than 0.1%.

Similarly, there are estimates that we have discovered only a fraction of plants that exist on earth today.  Are botany and biology useless then?  Should this stop us from studying and reaching conclusions about the plants we do know about?  Is photosynthesis questionable now too?

What's significant about the fossils is that 100% of that 0.1-1.2% supports evolution.  0% discredit the theory.  So, by your analogy, saying evolution is not true is like telling you to write a specific book report without even telling you what book it is on.  At least in evolution's case it has the title of the book, some information, and knows where to keep looking to find new sentences.

Although I see where you are going with this, I dont agree. Heres why.
The gravity reference is something that is a mathematical formula that we can test. It is much different than making the assumption that fossils belong to the same lineage.

Once again, with botony and biology, there is always a big difference between something that is tested right now, and assuming something that the only "proof" are a few pictures.

Going back to my book analogy, if the pages were torn out that you read, and you randomly found them scattered about, how would you even know it was from the same book. There are millions of books that are all common, and it could go to any of them. It is impossible to say that they support evolution considering fossil research more than anything is trying to prove evolution, and isnt being looked at objectively. Just because 2 things look the similar, it DOESNT MEAN that they were ancestors.
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Rundas

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg110491#msg110491
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2010, 05:43:50 pm »
a) An agnostic is typically someone who believes we can never definitively prove or disprove a higher power, so it is a moot point.  b) You can't really be an agnostic and atheist at the same time.  You're one or the other, and in your case you just have a "live and let live" attitude about it.
a) Agreed.
b) Not quite true. Agnosticism is about what you know, not what you believe. I can say I don't have the empirical evidence or the logical arguments to claim that I know whether there is or not a conscious higher power with interest in the human race with the ability to punish or reward the people for their moral choices and, at the same time, I can say I choose not to believe in such thing. (<- but I guess this last part is weak atheism) ._.

TL;DR = Both stances are not mutually exclusive.

PS: apologize for my grammar ._.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg110920#msg110920
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2010, 09:46:49 am »
Just because 2 things look the similar, it DOESNT MEAN that they were ancestors.
What does it mean then? That they were created by a deity? Oh that'd make like so much more sense.

All the pieces of evidence we have follow a pattern. Evolution is saying the pattern holds true in all cases, not just the ones we've observed (or found in the case of fossils). So what if we only have a small percentage of the total population of fossils? Ever heard of statistics? We have a large enough sample to say that if fossils existed that break the pattern we would have most likely seen AT LEAST ONE of them by now. But we haven't. No one hundred million years old elephant fossil has been found anywhere. Nor do we have a fossil of any other higher mammal that old (or older). Or any fossils of birds that old. Doesn't that kind of disprove ID? Where are your missing links (or missing chains in this case)? You only need ONE out of place fossil to disprove the theory of evolution. So where is it?

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg111579#msg111579
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2010, 07:48:40 am »
If we are the result of intelligent design, then why have we got a stupid appendix that we don't need?  That's not intelligent... in fact it looks rather like a random flaw that is more likely the result of evolution.


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg112015#msg112015
« Reply #93 on: July 11, 2010, 12:59:23 am »
A lot of people regurgitating popular psudeo science from the creationist lobby.  It's all been debunked tho.  And there's more evidence for macro evolution then there is for most of the convictions in court houses.  One really has to proclaim that it's not a fact that people are guilty before they can claim it's not a fact that evolution happened.  (that evolution happened it not the theory of evolution, it's not a theory at all, it's a fact.  How and why it happened is the only theory part.)

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kalkiran

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg112227#msg112227
« Reply #94 on: July 11, 2010, 08:51:50 am »
artois im sure many people would take offence from your signature. religion isnt just about believing things that cant be proved, there is in fact a purpose for it-to provide an ethical framework for those who have trouble finding one themselves.
admittedly this is becoming redundant.

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg112589#msg112589
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2010, 01:59:51 am »
If we are the result of intelligent design, then why have we got a stupid appendix that we don't need?  That's not intelligent... in fact it looks rather like a random flaw that is more likely the result of evolution.
Considering I normally find your arguments appealing, I was really disappointed with this one. \
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21153898/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-function-of-t


Both links talking about the use of the appendix.
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