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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg117112#msg117112
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2010, 01:01:45 am »
He isn't giving arguments in the link I posted. It's an interview. Someone asked him how he became Christian and he told the story.

You can't look at everything anyone says as if it's the defining argument about their beliefs. That just doesn't make sense.

I do have to wonder why you have such a strong beef specifically with Christians, but that might be getting off topic.
I understand it's an interview.  I also understand it was over the phone, which is less than ideal for making statements that I can nitpick.  I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, since I haven't read his book (although it sounds interesting).  But things like this rub me the wrong way:
Quote
But I did ultimately go and knock on the door of a Methodist minister who lived down the street and asked him if he could make any recommendations for somebody who, like me, was looking for some arguments for or against faith.

He took a book off his shelf -- "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. Lewis had been an atheist [and] set out as I did to convince himself of the correctness of his position and accidentally converted himself. I took the book home, and in the first few pages realized that all of my arguments in favor of atheism were quickly reduced to rubble by the simple logic of this clear-thinking Oxford scholar. I realized, "I've got to start over again here. Everything that I had based my position upon is really flawed to the core."
Not to sound like an ass, but if you talk about C.S. Lewis to most theologians (even christians), they aren't going to think you're serious.  The man was a brilliant writer, but he was not an rigorous theologian.  I have Mere Christianity, and I've read it, and I simply can't believe that was the sole driving force of a conversion.  Again, I would hope he would tell more in his book.


On a side note, that is not how I would define religion-an atheist might claim that such an impulse is the cause of religion, but I don't think that one can claim the impulse itself is religion. Unfortunately many terms, like religion, have only vague formal definitions which allows for some people to manipulate how they define terms when making arguments, which I always thought was somewhat dishonest.

Obviously I can't say whether I think the author of your book was being dishonest or if he simply thinks of religion very differently than I do, since I don't even know which book it is let alone read it.
I went and dug it up.  It was Sacred Worlds by Chris Park.  The part I said was actually a paraphrase of a quote by Yi Fu Tuan.  If it seems odd, it's probably because I stripped it of its context.  But I assure you, neither Tuan nor Park are raving atheists out making absurd claims.


Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg117199#msg117199
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2010, 03:24:44 am »
You might actually be disappointed by the book, in that the book isn't really about how he became Christian, it focuses more on the perceived conflicts between evolution and certain religious teachings.

As to C.S. Lewis, the main value in this case was not that Lewis' theology was so ground shaking that Dr. Collins immediately converted, but rather he showed that him that it was possible to think logically about religion.

With many people new to religion Lewis provides an excellent introduction to arguments in favor of Christianity. As to advanced theology, well you don't teach people to swim by pushing them out of a helicopter over the ocean.

Lewis' arguments aren't the strongest out there, but they were strong enough to show Dr. Collins that the arguments he'd been building his life around were extremely flimsy, and that he needed to take a more serious look at his spiritual life, which he had largely neglected up until that point.

If you're wondering why Dr. Collins went to a Christian minister instead of another religion, I believe it was that what first inspired him to start looking was observing terminally ill Christians at the hospital he was working at.

lawlmaster09

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119532#msg119532
« Reply #122 on: July 21, 2010, 12:58:49 am »
i dont know what to say. :D

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119536#msg119536
« Reply #123 on: July 21, 2010, 01:05:44 am »
...
 
No, I dont in the theory of evolution.

...

I believe you can not truely believe "Evolution is proven, without a doubt, scientifically." without having some type of faith in evolution.
Evolution has been proven with diseases how do you explain the new strains?  That's just faster evolution on a microscopic scale.  The basic idea goes along the lines of...

There is a field of corn.  Three plants are genetically mutated (not necessarily on purpose) two are mutated to where they die, but one is mutated to be stronger and more resistant to disease.  This stronger corn grows faster than the older breed of corn as they combine the corn evolves into a stronger disease resistant plant

On the subject of a Intelligent Design... I don't know the evidence say no but I want to say yes.  The evidence only leans towards no it is not definitive.

lawlmaster09

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119840#msg119840
« Reply #124 on: July 21, 2010, 01:00:18 pm »
glad 2 kno ur an athiest too, TheOwner :).

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119847#msg119847
« Reply #125 on: July 21, 2010, 01:23:11 pm »
Where is this evidence that leans way from intelligent design?
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119875#msg119875
« Reply #126 on: July 21, 2010, 01:59:50 pm »
Where is this evidence that leans way from intelligent design?
You may want to consult one of the tens of thousands of scientific papers on the subject. That isn't an exaggeration, btw.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119881#msg119881
« Reply #127 on: July 21, 2010, 02:06:51 pm »
Where is this evidence that leans way from intelligent design?
You may want to consult one of the tens of thousands of scientific papers on the subject. That isn't an exaggeration, btw.
There are no scientific papers on intelligent design, there are a great many on evolution. But as I said earlier evidence for evolution is not evidence against an intelligence behind the formation of life.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119882#msg119882
« Reply #128 on: July 21, 2010, 02:07:41 pm »
Where is this evidence that leans way from intelligent design?
You may want to consult one of the tens of thousands of scientific papers on the subject. That isn't an exaggeration, btw.
There are no scientific papers on intelligent design, there are a great many on evolution. But as I said earlier evidence for evolution is not evidence against an intelligence behind the formation of life.
exactly why i asked what the evidence against it was
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lawlmaster09

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119965#msg119965
« Reply #129 on: July 21, 2010, 03:33:30 pm »
dudes... evolution CANT co-exist with intelligent design, intelligent design is the EXACT OPPOSITE of evolution, therefore evidence for evolution IS evidence against intelligent design.

you might say: why cant evolution and intelligent design co-exist?

well, because: evolution states (with proof) that humans and all modern animals evolved from what you creationists like to call "primordial soup"(i have no idea WTF u guys were thinking when u called it that :o)

intelligent design states (with the only proof being the bible or something :/) that god(or maybe the flying spaghetti monster :D) made humans go "poof" into existence.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg119984#msg119984
« Reply #130 on: July 21, 2010, 03:50:27 pm »
Many Chrsitians believe that God guided evolution, me on the other hand, see common designer instead of common descent when I look at biology, and archeology.
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lawlmaster09

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg120017#msg120017
« Reply #131 on: July 21, 2010, 04:12:07 pm »
true, god(or some higher being (maybe even aliens :P)) MIGHT have guided evolution, the wiping out of the dinosaurs, for example. but that is NOT intelligent design.

yes, there IS a common designer, in a way. we all evolved from the same thing: bacterium. that is why many things have similarities, because we are (in a sense) "related", not like brothers/sisters but like cousins... sorta...

the thing alot of religeous people say is that evolution is more complicated, in order to be an athiest, you either have to be brought up as an athiest or you have to study and and think a little bit. for christians, all they have to say is "god did it!".

 

anything
blarg: