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JETZAL

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg52817#msg52817
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2010, 07:56:39 pm »
I don't want to spend to much time debating this with you guys, but many of you guys are mixing micro evolution (this is not Darwin's evolution. it's just like people who live on a mountain get stronger lungs so they can survive) and macro evolution, which is like sharks turning into people. Anyone who studies the human body would see how amazingly complex it is, yet if you are a evolutionist you are forced to believe that all happened by chance! Take the great Pyramids in Egypt they aren't very complex yet when you look at them you don't think that those stones happened to fall together in a pyramid shape and that they all got cut somehow, do you? that would be ridiculous! But you say the human body which is very  complex just happened by chance?

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg52831#msg52831
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2010, 08:37:42 pm »
Quote from: chemist
But the odds of it happening at all in two events are higher than the odds of it happening in one, ya' know. The odds of getting heads at least once in ten coin tosses are over 99.9% (not 50%, even though those are the odds of getting heads on each of those coins). Even when the chance is smaller if you have enough trials taking place simultaneously the odds of the event occurring can be pretty much a certainty.
I just flipped a coin 9 times. You just walked into the room. You have no clue what I got for my previous flips, and you have no way of finding out. What is the chance of it landing on heads? (and im being serious. Answer that question. This is the whole point of this conversation.)

I don't want to spend to much time debating this with you guys, but many of you guys are mixing micro evolution (this is not Darwin's evolution. it's just like people who live on a mountain get stronger lungs so they can survive) and macro evolution, which is like sharks turning into people. Anyone who studies the human body would see how amazingly complex it is, yet if you are a evolutionist you are forced to believe that all happened by chance! Take the great Pyramids in Egypt they aren't very complex yet when you look at them you don't think that those stones happened to fall together in a pyramid shape and that they all got cut somehow, do you? that would be ridiculous! But you say the human body which is very  complex just happened by chance?
Dont go there. Ignorance is bliss. As far as most of them are concerned, there is no difference between the 2. They are convinced it is a creationist term, which is it actually scientific. Even though it is offten mentioned in debates between ID and Evolution. Them term evolution is also brought up a lot as well. Does that mean Evolution is not scientific?  Just dont go that route... Its pointless..

Quote from: chemist
(and who says it had to have metabolism from the start?)
If it has no metabolism, it cant grow. It has to grow to replicate, otherwise itll get infinitly smaller. Unless matter for it is spontaneously generating now. I didnt explain each part because I didnt think it was really neccessary.It has to have some way to ingest food, simple or complex. So that it can grow, so that when it replicates, its not getting smaller.
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Offline Chemist

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg52865#msg52865
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2010, 09:55:41 pm »
I don't want to spend to much time debating this with you guys, but many of you guys are mixing micro evolution (this is not Darwin's evolution. it's just like people who live on a mountain get stronger lungs so they can survive) and macro evolution, which is like sharks turning into people. Anyone who studies the human body would see how amazingly complex it is, yet if you are a evolutionist you are forced to believe that all happened by chance! Take the great Pyramids in Egypt they aren't very complex yet when you look at them you don't think that those stones happened to fall together in a pyramid shape and that they all got cut somehow, do you? that would be ridiculous! But you say the human body which is very  complex just happened by chance?
Actually there's just evolution. Creationists insist on dividing it into micro and macro evolution, though there is no difference other than time and scale. There are no sharks turning into people in the theory of evolution. If you wish to read over this thread I have given a simplified explaination of how it works. It's quite simple, but do tell if you don't understand a part. Natural selection, which directs evolution, has little to do with chance. As evolution piles up small beneficial changes species usually change drastically given long periods of time. The complex organisms of today have evolved from much simpler ones. Note that not everything complex needs a creator - complexity can emerge by itself from simplicity: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF002.html

I just flipped a coin 9 times. You just walked into the room. You have no clue what I got for my previous flips, and you have no way of finding out. What is the chance of it landing on heads? (and im being serious. Answer that question. This is the whole point of this conversation.)
50% for it being heads, and over 99.9% for at least one of your tosses being heads. In other words: if you buy 10,000 lottery tickets at once then your odds of winning the week's lottery are much better than if you had only bought one. Can you at least grasp that?

As far as most of them are concerned, there is no difference between the 2. They are convinced it is a creationist term, which is it actually scientific. Even though it is offten mentioned in debates between ID and Evolution.
Small wonder the terms are used in debates with creationists when they bring them up. The differences are time and scale - but it's the same mechanisms. And if you propose to know of another difference of which biologists do not then do tell...
It has to grow to replicate, otherwise itll get infinitly smaller.
There are other ways of self-replication - you just need to create a copy of yourself. We know of self-replicating molecules, and those could have well been an intermediate stage towards life as we know it.


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg52900#msg52900
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2010, 11:00:30 pm »
Lets see if you can grasp this.

Quote from: chemist
50% for it being heads, and over 99.9% for at least one of your tosses being heads. In other words: if you buy 10,000 lottery tickets at once then your odds of winning the week's lottery are much better than if you had only bought one. Can you at least grasp that?
Yes, its all for the same lottery, those events are dependent events, not independent events. Say there are 50000 lottery tickets. I have a 1/5 chance of winning. However, if I bought those tickets for 10000 different lotteries, then for each lottery I would have a 1/50000 chance of winning for each lottery. EAch event is seperate and has its own chances. Me winning one doesnt make me any more likely to lose another. I still have the same chance. Thats what an INDEPENDENT EVENT is.
\
 The coin doesnt care what it landed on the other times. It still will always have the same chance. No matter what the previous ones were
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Kurohami

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg52994#msg52994
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2010, 01:55:40 am »
On the coin flipping issue, you two are talking about two different things that do not contradict with each other at all, I don't understand how you two end up arguing over it. Chemist is talking about when you tossed those 9 times, the chance of getting at least one head is very great. This is true. However, the original question asked about the chance of getting heads at the 10th throw. The chance of getting a head does not change no matter how many times you toss, so the chance is always 50%. These two ideas do not conflict at all.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg53098#msg53098
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2010, 11:09:20 am »
WHY LOOK AT THAT! Some type of intelligent being put them in a different environment, and they adapted to thier environment, and even got a new structure in the process that was very important since I already admitted that I was wrong on new information being added soemtimes.
Fact: The lizard was introduced to a different environment and adapted to that environment.

Yes, a human put them in that environment. That human was also able to study them and the original group.
Can we agree that there are/were species in this world that are/were introduced to different environments (either by migrating or experiencing a changing environment) and those species adapt to those environments?

Why look at that! An article that I already knew about! How amazing. Lets talk about that article for a little bit.

1st response. Biochemistry is not chance... well... no, it isnt... but we are talking about the formation of the original biological form... which is chance... There would be no amino acids, no plants, no oxygen, it would all have to appear from nowhere. THAT is chance. The first cell IS chance.
Great article about current understanding about abiogenesis:

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0030396
 (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0030396)

Also, I must ask... Is this thread about evolution, abiogenesis, the big bang, planet formation theory, philosophy?

Also, you seem to like to attack evolution. What is your claim for the diversity of life?

I don't want to spend to much time debating this with you guys, but many of you guys are mixing micro evolution (this is not Darwin's evolution. it's just like people who live on a mountain get stronger lungs so they can survive) and macro evolution, which is like sharks turning into people. Anyone who studies the human body would see how amazingly complex it is, yet if you are a evolutionist you are forced to believe that all happened by chance! Take the great Pyramids in Egypt they aren't very complex yet when you look at them you don't think that those stones happened to fall together in a pyramid shape and that they all got cut somehow, do you? that would be ridiculous! But you say the human body which is very  complex just happened by chance?
Your ignorance amazes me. I would respond but Im afraid you'll just close your eyes cover your ears while chanting "evolution is a lie, evolution is a lie"

I will say that I agree with you that it would be absurd to think the human body happened by chance. Actually I would be so bold as to say that if it was proven that it happened by chance it would disprove evolution.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg53122#msg53122
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2010, 12:41:27 pm »
Quote from: reqz
Fact: The lizard was introduced to a different environment and adapted to that environment.
Fixed.
Once again I point out, that the enviroment changed the lizard, The lizard didnt change for the environment.

What I mean.


Say I couldnt swim. Im in the middle of an ocean.
Situation 1)
after being in the water, and hopelessly flailing my arms tons of times, I eventually figured out how to swim.
That is me adapting to the enviroment.

Situation 2)
Some chemical goes into my body that makes it so that I have fins, and can breathe underwater
The enviroment effected me.

The 2nd situation (not exact, but the basic principle of it) is what probably happened with the lizard. And in all honesty, if you want evolution to hold any ground whatsoever, then you need to accept that. The 1st situation, hurts evolution more than it helps it.

The article, once again, is another fairy tale, I dont mind there being different hypothetical situations, what I do mind is only having a hypothetical situation, and saying that it had to happen some way like that.

Quote from: reqz

Also, I must ask... Is this thread about evolution, abiogenesis, the big bang, planet formation theory, philosophy?

Also, you seem to like to attack evolution. What is your claim for the diversity of life?
Yes, you are right, I do like attacking evolution. Is it because I think it is an "ungodly secular viewpoint", no, however, no one on here has been able to give reasonable evidence that it can be taught as a fact in schools. That is where my problem is.

If you cant teach it how it really happened, then dont teach it. Otherwise, for all we know, we will grow up and find out that what we thought was a fact, was nothing more than little evidence blown out of proportion.

Im not claiming to have all the answers to the beginning of the world, however, it is wrong to do such a thing when all you have is guesses as to what could happen.

I dont even talk about the big dud theory unless brought up first, and this is about mainly biological evolution and intelligent design. Which the origin of life would fall into.

Quote from: reqz
I will say that I agree with you that it would be absurd to think the human body happened by chance. Actually I would be so bold as to say that if it was proven that it happened by chance it would disprove evolution.
Could you explain that? I think I know what you mean by it, but im not quite sure.
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Offline Chemist

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg53125#msg53125
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2010, 12:52:49 pm »
Yes, its all for the same lottery, those events are dependent events, not independent events. Say there are 50000 lottery tickets. I have a 1/5 chance of winning. However, if I bought those tickets for 10000 different lotteries, then for each lottery I would have a 1/50000 chance of winning for each lottery. EAch event is seperate and has its own chances. Me winning one doesnt make me any more likely to lose another. I still have the same chance. Thats what an INDEPENDENT EVENT is.
But I don't care which lottery I win if the prizes  the same, nor do I care where in the early Earth's oceans life emerged or if it emerged three years sooner or later. What matters is only that it did emerge (and that I win on a lottery).
 
Let's say it's one of those lotteries where the tickets have a list of numbers from 1 to about 40, you fill it out by selecting a combination of seven numbers and if you get it right you win first prize.

Case #1: I fill out 10,000 such tickets for the weekly lottery with random combinations. I hope you agree that the odds of winning are much higher then if I filled out only a single ticket.

Case #2: There are 10,000 independent lotteries with the same kind of prize and I fill out one ticket for each of them. My odds of winning on a lottery in case 2 are exactly the same as my odds of winning the lottery in case 1.

That is because we have 10,000 experiments with the same probability of a favorable outcome in both cases. Unless the probability of an event is 1 or 0 it is more likely to have occured the more experiments have been performed. Still following me?

On the early Earth we could look for the event of a specific self-replicator emerging by chance. You say there was a low chance for it to show up from an experiment? There were several billion experiments occurring simultaneously, every week, for a million years or longer. That's a lot of experiments in total... the article I linked you to uses the actual numbers. It shows that if taking all the applicable factors into account then the odds of enough useful proteins being formed were actually quite good.

Say I couldnt swim. Im in the middle of an ocean.
Situation 1)
after being in the water, and hopelessly flailing my arms tons of times, I eventually figured out how to swim.
That is me adapting to the enviroment.
[...]
The 1st situation, hurts evolution more than it helps it.
That's NOT evolution. In evolution it's not the individual that adapts - it's the species (via natural selection). The individual simply drowns unless it can already swim or has the mental capacity to learn it swiftly.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg53131#msg53131
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2010, 01:27:09 pm »
That's NOT evolution. In evolution it's not the individual that adapts - it's the species (via natural selection). The individual simply drowns unless it can already swim or has the mental capacity to learn it swiftly.
Fine, instead of it being just me, say its the entire human race. I was working on a small scale/ The whole point is what is being effected.

Time for my own example as well I guess. Or we could just both agree to disagree on this thing. (the time/chance situation)

Im a FG
I have 50000 cards in my deck.
I only draw 2 cards at a time.
Each time I draw a card, a new card is placed randomly in my deck, my deck is then shuffled.
Any cards I play have an effect that only lasts for 1 turn.
I have 2 Super Cards.
The first is a drain life that absorbs 5 health for every  :darkness and costs nothing to play
The second is a Pillar that when played, automatically gives me 500  :darkness and costs nothing to play.
I have 1 HP, and am poisoned, so at the end of my turn, I lose if I dont get the quanta
It is like this for every battle.


Now under these rules, I have to draw both cards at the same time, otherwise it doesnt help me at all.

Would you ever bet on that deck to win?

If not, then why would you base everything you believe off of that. just because somethings possible, it doesnt mean it will happen.
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reqz

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg53142#msg53142
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2010, 02:06:54 pm »
Situation 2)
Some chemical goes into my body that makes it so that I have fins, and can breathe underwater
The enviroment effected me.
Are you telling me you believe that something the lizard ate/came in contact with made it grow a new internal structure? A new internal structure I might add that is encoded in it's DNA and able to pass onto its offspring?

Yes, you are right, I do like attacking evolution. Is it because I think it is an "ungodly secular viewpoint", no, however, no one on here has been able to give reasonable evidence that it can be taught as a fact in schools. That is where my problem is.

If you cant teach it how it really happened, then dont teach it. Otherwise, for all we know, we will grow up and find out that what we thought was a fact, was nothing more than little evidence blown out of proportion.

Im not claiming to have all the answers to the beginning of the world, however, it is wrong to do such a thing when all you have is guesses as to what could happen.

I dont even talk about the big dud theory unless brought up first, and this is about mainly biological evolution and intelligent design. Which the origin of life would fall into.
Ill admit. The theory of evolution is not perfect. It does not explain EVERYTHING. But, it is the best understanding when have to date about how life became diversified and is currently becoming more diversified. Now lets think about why there is so much money going into the research of evolution. It is because we can actually USE the information and predictions of evolution to affect our lives.
-Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.
-Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture.
-Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.
Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy.
-Sex allocation theory, based on evolution theory, was used to predict conditions under which the highly endangered kakapo bird would produce more female offspring, which retrieved it from the brink of extinction
-Phylogenetic analysis, which uses the evolutionary principle of common descent, has proven its usefulness. Tracing genes of known function and comparing how they are related to unknown genes helps one to predict unknown gene function, which is foundational for drug discovery
-Directed evolution allows the "breeding" of molecules or molecular pathways to create or enhance products, including: enzymes, pigments antibiotics, flavors, biopolymers, bacterial strains to decompose hazardous materials.
-The evolutionary principles of natural selection, variation, and recombination are the basis for genetic algorithms, an engineering technique that has many practical applications, including aerospace engineering, architecture, astrophysics, data mining, drug discovery and design, electrical engineering, finance, geophysics, materials engineering, military strategy, pattern recognition, robotics, scheduling, and systems engineering.
-Many statistical techniques, including analysis of variance and linear regression, were developed by evolutionary biologists, especially Ronald Fisher and Karl Pearson. These statistical techniques have much wider application today.


Good science need not have any application beyond satisfying curiosity. Much of astronomy, geology, paleontology, natural history, and other sciences have no practical application. For many people, knowledge is a worthy end in itself. Science with little or no application now may find application in the future, especially as the field matures and our knowledge of it becomes more complete. Practical applications are often built upon ideas that did not look applicable originally. Furthermore, advances in one area of science can help illuminate other areas. Evolution provides a framework for biology, a framework which can support other useful biological advances. Anti-evolutionary ideas have been around for millennia and have not yet contributed anything with any practical application.

Could you explain that? I think I know what you mean by it, but im not quite sure.
Evolutionists the world over are unanimous in their agreement that complex structures did not arise by chance. The theory of evolution does not say they did. The novel aspect that Darwin proposed is natural selection. Selection is the very opposite of chance.



Now, your turn BluePriest. Intelligent design. First, I need to know what type of creationist you are, so I know where I can start my questions.
Earth 6000 years old or Earth 4.54 Billion years old?
God created each "kind" of animal as is or god guided evolution?
Noahs arc or unified theory of geology?
Can you account for your claims without citing the bible as evidence, using faith, or not turning the tables and saying evolution is wrong so ID must be right?



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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg53152#msg53152
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2010, 02:35:48 pm »
Fine, instead of it being just me, say its the entire human race. I was working on a small scale/ The whole point is what is being effected.
How is that different? Natural selection works the same: either some of those people know how to swim or you've just caused a species to go extinct. Though humans are a very unsuitable example here since we learn how to swim instead of knowing or not knowing how based on hereditary instinct.
Im a FG
I have 50000 cards in my deck.
[...]
Would you ever bet on that deck to win?
I wouldn't bet on any god, even though we can't disprove any of them. I believe it makes much more sense to trust the massive amounts of evidence supporting evolution.
And unfortunately for you there is no such thing as evidence against evolution - there are merely a handful of things evolution has yet to explain (versus everything else it already has). Note that the theory of evolution can explain much more today then it could two hundred years ago or even twenty years ago. That's science. The evolutionary theory of today is still just an approximation of the correct answer, but scientists keep adding decimal places (figuratively). We'll have the complete, mistake free version some day. (And how are alternative theories coming along?)

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg53180#msg53180
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2010, 03:45:42 pm »
"A substance such as this is considered an irreducibly complex structure. One Example, is a bacterial flagellum. "

The fact is, Its not!

I saw a documentary from BBC not too long ago about this. They have shown that the parts that makes up the propulsion of such a bacteria is indeed made up from parts that already exist somewhere else. I wish i had put this all to memory but when i heard that i became more convinced that evolution holds true.

Besides what stops the middle evolutionary mechanism from getting saved from the maws of mutation, death, time and erosion?

This below is basically off topic but sets some background to why I think science is the key to reality and why religion is a hoax.
------------------------------------------
God is just another dead end in existence. The very belief in gods or the supernatural is a worship of stalement, decay and death, its unchanging and archaic that inpeads new thought and motions and tries to hold back eveything and control. If you look at the world around us everything is about movement, adapting and relentless need for creating offspring.

The only good with religion is the word of love but if you have to have religion to have that... you must be one seriously damaged human being, and religion have more blood on its hands than anything else.
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