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Offline TheOwner

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg124054#msg124054
« Reply #216 on: July 25, 2010, 06:00:15 pm »
Mutations can be proven on a microscopic level don't ignore the fact. 

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg124570#msg124570
« Reply #217 on: July 26, 2010, 05:11:20 am »
Mutations can be proven on a microscopic level don't ignore the fact.
I dont deny that mutations happen in the least bit. You see them quite often in the world. However, I just as some evolutionists feel that people use a creator to explain everything they cant, the exact opposite is often done with mutations. Any time there is not another suitable explanation, mutations are used instead. I understand your considering them different than a creator since you can not test the probability of one, however, since it has never been proven that there is no creator, there is ultimately no way to determine for a fact if one theory is correct or not.

Q: If you can repeat something, is it still considered a mutation, or is it just considered natural selection?
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg124644#msg124644
« Reply #218 on: July 26, 2010, 09:40:03 am »
I dont deny that mutations happen in the least bit. You see them quite often in the world. However, I just as some evolutionists feel that people use a creator to explain everything they cant, the exact opposite is often done with mutations. Any time there is not another suitable explanation, mutations are used instead. I understand your considering them different than a creator since you can not test the probability of one, however, since it has never been proven that there is no creator, there is ultimately no way to determine for a fact if one theory is correct or not.
I'm not quite sure I've understood your rant there. You're trying to say we shouldn't consider evolution the only option when there are completely viable alternative explanations? I'd agree with that, except that there are no such explanations. For an explanation to be a viable alternative it needs to be able to explain all observable evidence (hold water). The explanation you gave us some three pages ago, however, runs contrary to the observable evidence. (Like I've already said in this here post that you didn't address: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4398.msg131005.html#msg131005)
Q: If you can repeat something, is it still considered a mutation, or is it just considered natural selection?
Would you please rephrase this? I've no idea what you're trying to ask. What is "something" referring to?

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg124803#msg124803
« Reply #219 on: July 26, 2010, 04:42:55 pm »
Well, I wanted to say something, but 19 pages really is a lot and honestly it gets quite repetitive and out of hand after a while... Several other topics have been mentioned and that is just too much.

I'll try to add something simple about evolution, but nothing else, and nothing too technical. For most people it's mostly about the main idea.

Let me cover a few problems people have with evolution:

Irreducible complexity, such as the infamous flagellum.

No one can answer how the flagellum was built up right now, so really no use asking it all the time. Remember this is just a minor detail. Other issues are being solved. People also like to talk about the eye and how it could not have formed in stages... But then certain animals, (was it squids I don't recall?) very much have eyes without a lens and it still works, somewhat. An eye is therefore not irreducible and it is not very well designed. There's a connector in front of the eye that is IN our visual field that causes a blind spot. A designer would have put this connection on the back.

So, if one detail is not explained, can we discard a theory?

Usually not. Because there is evidence. If a crime was committed somewhere and DNA of a suspect was found at the crime scene, (someones house) while this person had no reason to be there, then what? No one saw the suspect and yet under normal circumstances he would be the culprit.

This is the same with evolution. We haven't actually had the time to see a simple organism evolve into something much more complex. However we have seen minor changes at present day and we have all these fossils of less complex creatures. So if present day animals are not the same as older ones, what happened? Evolution is the natural answer, even if you cannot explain every detail. And,  you are free to think someone pushed evolution in the right direction. but it's still evolution.

If you deny evolution all together, it does not solve your problems. You can add a higher being to the playing field, but then you must be fair. If you want to discard evolution over a detail, then please, also explain exactly how this entity created  life/evolution, or it doesn't count either.

Based on the geological evidence, only guided evolution or staggered creation stands a chance instead of plain evolution. By staggered creation I mean after a while a load of life became extinct or was simple ''zapped.'' Then new varieties were placed.

I hope you understand my argumentation and why I cannot possibly deny some form of evolution.

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Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg124840#msg124840
« Reply #220 on: July 26, 2010, 05:41:46 pm »
Hi, just going to jump in for a few things here, I'm trying to take more of a back seat in this dicusion for a while, but I've noticed a few misconceptions popping up so I thought I should comment

Irreducible complexity, such as the infamous flagellum.

No one can answer how the flagellum was built up right now, so really no use asking it all the time. Remember this is just a minor detail. Other issues are being solved. People also like to talk about the eye and how it could not have formed in stages... But then certain animals, (was it squids I don't recall?) very much have eyes without a lens and it still works, somewhat. An eye is therefore not irreducible and it is not very well designed. There's a connector in front of the eye that is IN our visual field that causes a blind spot. A designer would have put this connection on the back.
Actually, I can explain where the flagella came from. The proteins that make up the flagella are very similar to ATP synthase, a large protein complex that produces "fuel" for the cell. This complex was simply relocated to the outer membrane (a small mutation in the localization signal would do the trick) and then a few small changes to the proteins themselves would be enough to re-purpose the whole complex for locomotion.

What there is not a satisfactory explanation for is where any of these proteins came from in the first place. I've seen theories about the first cells spontaneously forming from chemicals on the early earth, but these are fairly ludicrous, and are no more testable by science than the existence of God. Yet these are considered "scientific".

The organisms that have pseudo-eyes are mostly things like planaria, and cyclops (a multicellular microscopic organism, not the myth). They have light sensitive eye-spots, that are used to find dark places for hiding etc. They cannot "see" but they can tell if there is light or not in a given direction. (Squid actually have incredibly complex eyes)

If you deny evolution all together, it does not solve your problems. You can add a higher being to the playing field, but then you must be fair. If you want to discard evolution over a detail, then please, also explain exactly how this entity created  life/evolution, or it doesn't count either.
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg124877#msg124877
« Reply #221 on: July 26, 2010, 06:32:34 pm »
Thanks for the clarification. I said I was not going to be technical. I'm not an expert and I'm not claiming to be. Just saying evolution can account for the world. There are layers with fossils of increasing complexity. Extinction waves wiped out life and it came back. Other theories do not account for the world. I only ask a ROUGH outline of how you can account for the current state of affairs. No one has ever given me that. I mean except evolution.
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg125240#msg125240
« Reply #222 on: July 27, 2010, 12:32:58 am »
Sorry, to reword my question, basically, what Im getting at is this. Is there a difference between something mutating randomly, and it changing due to it being invoked by natural selection? So, if you can repeat the mutation, is it still considered a mutation?
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Offline ratcharmer

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg125334#msg125334
« Reply #223 on: July 27, 2010, 02:29:54 am »
Sorry, to reword my question, basically, what Im getting at is this. Is there a difference between something mutating randomly, and it changing due to it being invoked by natural selection? So, if you can repeat the mutation, is it still considered a mutation?
Random mutations are part of natural selection, but it isn't the whole thing. If it helps consider natural selection a two step process repeated over and over again.

1) random mutations create variation in the population
2) environmental factors kill the less viable mutants

This is of course a gross oversimplification, but I think you get the point. The more viable mutants survive while others do not, then the survivors repeat the process.

Yes mutations can be repeatable. Two examples I can give you from my work in the lab:

-A friend of mine needed a strain of bacteria that could eat a specific compound, so he took a strain that is very prone to mutation and added them to media that only contained that as a food source. Soon enough he had bacteria growing on a compound they couldn't eat before. By manipulating environmental factors he was able to select for a specific sort of mutation. Note that not all of the mutant cells created in this way have exactly the same mutation though.

-The other way to do it is through non-random mutagenesis. That is, for a researcher (or something else) to directly modify the organisms DNA in a specific way, usually by adding in a new piece of DNA.  Recently I added an extra gene to E.coli cells so that I could examine what the protein that gene created did.

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg125344#msg125344
« Reply #224 on: July 27, 2010, 02:48:03 am »
So mutations, and micro evolution are next to synonymous if Im understanding you correctly, is that pretty much the gist?
so in other words, evolutions main driving force is no longer thought to be slow adaptations to the environment that are directly influenced by it, but instead mutations that if lucky, help the creature correct?
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg125386#msg125386
« Reply #225 on: July 27, 2010, 04:41:39 am »
So mutations, and micro evolution are next to synonymous if Im understanding you correctly, is that pretty much the gist?
so in other words, evolutions main driving force is no longer thought to be slow adaptations to the environment that are directly influenced by it, but instead mutations that if lucky, help the creature correct?
That's exactly how evolution has been thought to work for the past two centuries. Novel traits arising from sexual reproduction are another part, but they are still driven by mutation (e.g. Indian mother has a different ancestry and hence different mutations to an English father, so any traits present in their children but neither parent are ultimately caused by mutation).

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg125528#msg125528
« Reply #226 on: July 27, 2010, 12:57:53 pm »
Well I suppose thats why I have so little faith in evolution when it comes to crossing phyla. There is too much misinformation during school when it is taught. Information that makes it look like one thing, when in reality it is something totally different. Mutations and natural selection were taught as 2 entirely different things in my school. Sure they would occasionally work together, however, the prime way evolution was taught, we will take darwins finches as just an example, was that things such as beaks growing larger, had nothing to do with mutations, and were just a natural process. And this process was considered to be the main driving force for evolution.
 Unless of course, Im misunderstanding you, and that IS how it works.
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4398.msg125609#msg125609
« Reply #227 on: July 27, 2010, 02:53:21 pm »
Well I suppose thats why I have so little faith in evolution when it comes to crossing phyla. There is too much misinformation during school when it is taught. Information that makes it look like one thing, when in reality it is something totally different. Mutations and natural selection were taught as 2 entirely different things in my school. Sure they would occasionally work together, however, the prime way evolution was taught, we will take darwins finches as just an example, was that things such as beaks growing larger, had nothing to do with mutations, and were just a natural process. And this process was considered to be the main driving force for evolution.
 Unless of course, Im misunderstanding you, and that IS how it works.
Your school must have had bad teachers. What you described is known as Lamarckian evolution, after its proponent Jean-Baptiste Lamarck. He believed that animals would adapt to their environments in their own lifetimes (like giraffes growing larger necks to reach taller trees) and pass that genetics onto their children. Darwin's theory of evolution, which has achieved scientific consensus, was that organisms would have children with slightly different genetics (due to mutations or sexual reproduction or in some bacteria lateral genetic transfer), and if that resulted in a benefit to reproduction it would in turn be passed down to their children.

Basically, evolution has three main requirements. If satisfied, it is a mathematical certainty that the system will evolve; biological evolution is just a specific case of a more general feedback system rule, albeit an extremely elegant one.
1. Entities must reproduce themselves - Reproduction.
2. Variation must be introduced over generations - Variation.
3. The chance of reproduction must be dependent on which variations do or do not occur - Selection.

If all three conditions (reproduction, variation and selection) are satisfied, evolution occurs. The converse is also true; a system without reproduction, variation or selection will not evolve in an optimisation sense. The debate over intelligent design and evolution doesn't usually dispute this; it's usually focussed more on whether these variations are capable of producing the diversity of life we see today (I assume you agree, based on your last post).

We have two types of reproduction: sexual and asexual. Sexual reproduction involves a recombination of two parent's chromosomes, while asexual reproduction is basically cloning (different mechanisms for it that we don't need to go into here). We also have three types of variation: mutation, recombination and lateral transfer. Mutation creates novel genes, recombination creates novel combinations of genes, and lateral transfer puts old genes in new genetic environments (genomes). For the purposes of evolution, mutation is more 'powerful' than recombination, which is more 'powerful' than lateral transfer (mainly because lateral transfer allows viruses to inject RNA and other badness), but all are still important.

It is (or should be) beyond dispute that an idealised series of mutations could result in any organism on earth. It is trivial to show that a very long series of insertions, deletions and swaps could create any DNA string starting from any other. And that's all a mutation is: one or more insertions, deletions or swaps. Now not every pathway would create organisms that would survive to reproduce even in ideal conditions, and some mutations would be removed by natural selection - it takes energy to replicate DNA, and shorter sequences are ever so slightly better. A long, pointless stretch of DNA (like junk DNA in humans and other animals, but much more of it) would be selected against. So I'm not saying that it is indisputable that macro-evolution occurs. The science is conclusive that it does, but I at least have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that there are objections. Whether or not the objections are valid is another matter.

 

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