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PuppyChow

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg54579#msg54579
« Reply #312 on: April 17, 2010, 04:03:13 am »
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And it DOES matter if Paul was right.  Paul never met Jesus.  There is no evidence Paul even met a disciple.  Paul didn't start writing until 20 years after Jesus' death AND spoke a different language than the disciples, so any story of Jesus he heard had to have gone through [multiple?] translations over two decades.

Paul claimed all of his knowledge came from divine visions.  If his beliefs were wrong (or changed over time), did the visions lie?  Could Paul not accurately interpret them?  What other implications follow?
The Bible claims Paul (then Saul) met Jesus on the road to Damascus, when he changed his name to Paul and became religious. So he did meet Jesus.

As far as I know, the letters didn't actually come from visions. He received the Gospel from Jesus Christ. Not the letters. The letters he wrote himself.

And were some of his beliefs suspect? In my opinion, yes. He justifies women not talking in church by the fact that Adam came before Eve. That connection seems vague to me, at best. However, that was his own interpretation; not given to him from visions.

Good job answering my question, by the way.

PhuzzY LogiK

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg54597#msg54597
« Reply #313 on: April 17, 2010, 04:50:50 am »
The Bible claims Paul (then Saul) met Jesus on the road to Damascus, when he changed his name to Paul and became religious. So he did meet Jesus.

As far as I know, the letters didn't actually come from visions. He received the Gospel from Jesus Christ. Not the letters. The letters he wrote himself.
The encounter on the road to Damascus was a vision as well.  He didn't meet Jesus in the flesh, he spoke to a flash of light.  Even in that encounter, he was instructed to go into the city and he would be "told" what to do.  The "voice" claimed to be Jesus.

In Galatians 1:11-12, Paul says: "I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."

Another example of god speaking to Paul is in Acts 18:9-11.

The most you can claim is that Paul spoke to some form of a resurrected Jesus, but Paul never observed Jesus' ministry on earth.


We're getting pretty far off topic here, but I guess we can keep going until a mod says something?

PuppyChow

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg54604#msg54604
« Reply #314 on: April 17, 2010, 05:06:14 am »
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The most you can claim is that Paul spoke to some form of a resurrected Jesus
This.

acelink

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg54606#msg54606
« Reply #315 on: April 17, 2010, 05:12:14 am »
Isn't it also ironic that atheists use the same calendar and dating methods Christians use? If you're an atheist, you wouldn't really be sticking to your beliefs if you said the year was 2010 AD (anno domini: in the year of our lord).

The only reason they do use AD is because the entire world uses it. If they suddenly started using a different dating system, things would get quite confusing.
While they continue with the numbering system established by monks, any serious literature now refers to dates as 2010 CE (Common Era), to avoid the appearance of the prejudice you mentioned.

Your overall statement still stands, though.  It's a trivial point.
It is trivial.  I just find it ironic that religions didn't change the names of the days/months.  They, in a sense, acknowledge the existence of other 'gods' which is blasphemous. (Yes it also works with athesists... going against their beliefs)

I do not believe in a 'personal god'.  I just started reading The Courtier and the Heretic, a book about Leibniz and Spinoza.  (I have no clue who they are.)  The book starts out talking about Spinoza's philosophy summarizes a part to this:  "In his philosophical system, he offers a concept of God befitting the universe revealed by modern science--a universe ruled only by cause and effect of natural laws, without purpose or design.  He describes what it means to be human after our pretension to occupy a special place in nature has been shattered."

I really like how that is said.  Religion started at a time before our understanding of how vast the universe is.  I believe Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) was the first person to prove other galaxies existed... and centuries before that, planets were considered 'wandering stars' and the Earth was thought to be the center of the universe.

Religion has, is and will be pious and ethnocentric.  Their God is seen as almighty, all powerful, created the universe and keeps an eye on us because we are 'special'.  The universe is an inconceivable size... Why would he care about mere specks on a nearly invisible planet?  Are we really that 'special'?

I believe in a god... just not the 'religious' almighty god.  I do not believe the God(s) religions talk about exists, at least not in the way they describe.

Kurohami

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg54975#msg54975
« Reply #316 on: April 17, 2010, 11:33:11 pm »
Acelink, your post reflects my opinions exactly :D

dragonhuman

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg56002#msg56002
« Reply #317 on: April 19, 2010, 08:58:17 pm »
I'm not even going to read through to see if this is said

but what science doesn't explain is how the universe was created, it says how the planets and stars were formed but not how the stuff to make the planets and stuff? But then if god does exist who crated him? and who would create what created God? its just a paradox of infinite loops

jallenw

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg56015#msg56015
« Reply #318 on: April 19, 2010, 09:24:45 pm »
I've been studying this stuff for 23 years now.

The writings of Paul.
The idea that the disciples of Jesus' time thought that the day of YHVH would come during their lifetime is incorrect.  The disciples and Jesus were Jews, and for thousands of years they have believed that 1000 years is 1 day, and mankind will have 6 'days' of dominion over the earth.  The approximate time, as they would have calculated, during the life of Jesus was around 4000 years after the normally understood creation of mankind, so the disciples of Jesus would not have expected the day of the lord to come after only 4000 years.  Paul, a Jewish Pharisee and a student of Gamliel, would have understood that he was living 2000 years before the 6000 year mark, so it is unreasonable to think that he assumed he would be alive 2000 years later.  When he says, 'we who are alive at his coming' he is speaking generally about all believers, and not specifically including himself or any other specific individuals by saying we.

Science vs Dogma
Science is the method by which we humans understand what God does and how God does it.  With enough information, everything God does is understandable and explainable in a factual, logical, objectively defined universe of consistent rules and parameters.  With the exception of less than 10 miracles which can not be adequately explained by current scientific theory, all events in the bible can be understood by the concrete laws and workings of our factual universe through science.  The few that can not be explained still can be understood though many different theories, all of which would not contradict currently understood scientific fact.
The dogma of modern Christianity, however, has spent nearly 2000 years twisting the words of the bible out of context to build a massive collection of man-made, contrived lies and falsehoods that are in direct contradiction to firmly established scientific fact as well as in direct contradiction to the actual contextual teaching of the Bible itself.  This had led to the illusion that science and belief in God are mutually exclusive.   Science seems to contradict religion, because religions have invented false dogma.  Science is concerned with Facts supported by evidence, and False dogma can not stand up to it.  When false dogma is removed from a contextual understanding of what the bible actually says, as opposed to what people have imagined it to say, then Science is the ally to every student of theology, and firmly established scientific fact will not contradict the bible.  It will instead, help to show which interpretations of scripture are false, and which interpretations are true.

I hope this was informative,
Jallen

Delreich

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg56345#msg56345
« Reply #319 on: April 20, 2010, 10:57:09 am »
I just find it ironic that religions didn't change the names of the days/months.  They, in a sense, acknowledge the existence of other 'gods' which is blasphemous. (Yes it also works with athesists... going against their beliefs)
They don't acknowledge the existence of gods any more than someone playing Zelda acknowledges the existence of Hyrule.
How any of this would be going against anyone's beliefs is beyond me...

Hobnob5000

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg56699#msg56699
« Reply #320 on: April 20, 2010, 09:07:58 pm »
My personal beliefs are that god exists, but he caused life to happen through science. In other words, he created the Big Bang, he pulled lumps of rick together to form earth, etc.

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg57387#msg57387
« Reply #321 on: April 22, 2010, 03:55:47 am »
I just find it ironic that religions didn't change the names of the days/months.  They, in a sense, acknowledge the existence of other 'gods' which is blasphemous. (Yes it also works with athesists... going against their beliefs)
They don't acknowledge the existence of gods any more than someone playing Zelda acknowledges the existence of Hyrule.
How any of this would be going against anyone's beliefs is beyond me...
*covers his ears* its not true, its not true, Hyrule DOES exist!

Anyways...
Religion has, is and will be pious and ethnocentric.  Their God is seen as almighty, all powerful, created the universe and keeps an eye on us because we are 'special'.  The universe is an inconceivable size... Why would he care about mere specks on a nearly invisible planet?  Are we really that 'special'?

Why create us in the first place if he didnt care about us?

And since he is omnipotent, and omnipresent, then the galaxies of the world are small to God as well, just like time is irrelevant to God as well.

People say that God is cruel and ruthless, however, why even bother with us like Acelink said? Why nurture us? What really is so special about us?

Having the realization of what Acelink said is what it is that makes some people take offense, just like if someone said something bad about a best friend. Not because they have a different view, but because of being hurt that someone would say such a bad thing about the friend. Because even though it doesnt make any sense at all, God DOES care. God DOES love us, and he wants us to come to him. But he gives us the choice to turn our backs on him BECAUSE he cares, even though he is always ready for us with open arms.
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