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Offline vrt

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg24566#msg24566
« Reply #144 on: February 09, 2010, 04:56:30 pm »
I believe that my beliefs are correct, but don't go around correcting people.
The use of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" is parodizing religion, and should not be used in a forum about God's existence.
Do you even realise how hypocritical this is?
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Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg24653#msg24653
« Reply #145 on: February 09, 2010, 10:49:50 pm »
I believe that my beliefs are correct, but don't go around correcting people.
The use of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" is parodizing religion, and should not be used in a forum about God's existence.
Do you even realise how hypocritical this is?
I can see it.

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Offline Rastafla

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36161#msg36161
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2010, 05:46:40 pm »
My answer is NO

I'm an atheist and its basically this quotes explains how I perceive the world around us.

If you've seen a diagram of an atom, with the electrons floating around and stuff, you see that its mostly just space. And the electrons, nutrons, and protons aren't actually blue, red, and yellow balls. Their just energy, just more space really.

So basically everything that exists is space. We experience it and so, to us, it exists. But if we didn't experience it, it wouldn't.

I suppose I'm saying everything exists if you see it that way. Otherwise you just see empty space. Something like that.

I am so going to be burned for this XD
Religion has played out its use, religion have never lost to science even once. They can sit in deadlock but sooner or later religion fails and will only have one single question left and the pious will gather around it "Does god exist?" like rats to the mast of a sinking ship.

Science have proved religion wrong at every account so far.
If science fails it tries again and makes a better theory. And if the model works and its assumptions and such is observed it can be put to practical use.

Religion bashes it head against a wall and buries its head in the sand
and refuses change. Religion makes up excuses and makes the impossible divine. When someone makes the impossible possible then its suddenly not divine anymore. And religion hides behind yet another excuse.

Everything that remains unchanged dies and regresses.

Religion is at its very core dead, some may argue that since so many religions exist its not so but for every single belief that exist a thousand have gone before it and died out. They only exist in history and in forgotten remains.
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Offline Demagog

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36181#msg36181
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2010, 06:29:48 pm »
I take it you're a strong atheist then.

Sure, religions have been wrong about things. So has science.

Ok, if science has proved religion wrong every time, list every time, or we can't really accept your statement as true can we?

The fact is, I can't prove God's (or any god's) existence just as much as you can't prove to me that you exist. Sure I may be communicating with you, but how do I know I'm not dreaming right now? How do I know that there are actually atoms, or even the space to make them up? And that's the beauty of it. You can't know that there is anything other than yourself. All you really have to go on is belief. You don't know if you have a hand, but you believe you do. It's the same with religion. You don't know in a sense that can be written out logically or proven scientifically, but you still believe, and belief is just as powerful as knowledge.

Scientists are guilty of believing something they don't know exists as well. Unless I've been out of the loop, they are still searching for the Higgson-Boggs particle... what if they never can prove or disprove it's existence? What if they've reached a complete dead end. Of course they may never know they reached a dead end. But knowing that with current technology it can't be proven or disproven, will they support one side over the other? The answer is no. They would say "at this moment, we aren't capable of knowing."

So isn't it feasible that "at this moment, we aren't capable of knowing" is true of religion too? Even if it is at a dead end epistemically?

I'll quit now.

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36422#msg36422
« Reply #148 on: March 11, 2010, 03:38:29 am »
I thought I would poke my head in here and look at this thread.  I espouse no religious beliefs myself, but I find teh Christian God quite interesting.  The problem I find with the Bible, though, is that it is filled with inconsistencies.  From two differing Genesis accounts(both of which are nearly identical to two Egyptian creation myths) to the prophecies of Ezra(Esdras), Enoch and Daniel being flat out wrong, then revised, then wrong again, then just plain given up upon, I feel that the Bible lacks credibility.  Hell, God can't even make up his mind as to whether or not other gods exist.  I don't mean to offend anyone, but if you view the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, then you are sorely mistaken.  And a sinner, Leviticus kinda says that you can stone your kids for talking back, eating shellfish is an abomination and it is against the Law to wear clothes of mixed fibers.  Of course, it can be and is claimed that Jesus did away with the need for those laws, but then why in Matthew does he state that not one letter was to be removed from the laws?

I don't imagine that anyone will take the time to read that whole paragraph above, but if you did, thank you.  Also, my last jab:  In the Gospel according to Matthew Jesus is visited by wise men in Bethlehem(where he was born), Herod wants them to find baby Jesus so he can kill him.  An angel lets Joseph in on Herod's plan so they flee to Egypt and eventually wind up in Nazareth.  Luke, on the other hand, tells us that Joseph and Mary are from Nazarath as that is undoubtedly where most of his ministry occurred, but Augustus called a census that required the family to go to Bethlehem, where Jesus was born and visited by shepherds(the census, by the way, has no record of ever having occurred), then they return to Nazarath.  How is one to reconcile these two accounts?  And also, why is the virgin birth not even mentioned in the other two gospels, Mark and John?  Did the editors decide that it simply wasn't that important? 

Anywho, apologies for my rambling if I have caused offense.

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36649#msg36649
« Reply #149 on: March 11, 2010, 06:34:23 pm »
Ok, if science has proved religion wrong every time, list every time, or we can't really accept your statement as true can we?
If you say, "I have to breath every moment of my life to live", is it any less true if you can't recall every last moment you've lived?

Not saying I agree with what he said, but your defense is equally faulty.

The fact is, I can't prove God's (or any god's) existence just as much as you can't prove to me that you exist. Sure I may be communicating with you, but how do I know I'm not dreaming right now? How do I know that there are actually atoms, or even the space to make them up? And that's the beauty of it. You can't know that there is anything other than yourself. All you really have to go on is belief. You don't know if you have a hand, but you believe you do. It's the same with religion. You don't know in a sense that can be written out logically or proven scientifically, but you still believe, and belief is just as powerful as knowledge.

Scientists are guilty of believing something they don't know exists as well. Unless I've been out of the loop, they are still searching for the Higgson-Boggs particle... what if they never can prove or disprove it's existence? What if they've reached a complete dead end. Of course they may never know they reached a dead end. But knowing that with current technology it can't be proven or disproven, will they support one side over the other? The answer is no. They would say "at this moment, we aren't capable of knowing."

So isn't it feasible that "at this moment, we aren't capable of knowing" is true of religion too? Even if it is at a dead end epistemically?
No, because you're comparing two very different things.

In your example of religion, you're suggesting a very extreme skepticism (pretty much Kantian Idealism).  In this case, nothing can be proven because only mental abstractions can be known with absolute certainty.  In your second paragraph you're asking for proof, which means that you can no longer embrace that skepticism.

Science has reasons it postulates things.  They are looking for the Higgs boson because it is the only unknown in an equation that spans more than a page in length and unifies nearly all of standard particle physics.  It's not like they are arbitrarily looking around space hoping to find an answer.

This is another vital flaw in your comparison: "... what if they never can prove or disprove it's existence?"
In the case of religion, short of some global miracle and/or some higher being exposing itself to everyone on the planet at the same time, you're correct to say you can never know for sure about the existence of a higher being.

In the case of science, by definition, something will always be able to be proven or disproven, with the only condition being we have the adequate technology for it.  This is because science does not deal in pure conjecture.  You can't just say "I think X exists because I feel it."  To be taken seriously, you have to say something like "Due to a previous experiment, I have reason to think X exists.  Further, we may test for X's existence by performing experiment Y."  For example, the question of whether or not the Higgs boson exists can be answered when CERN's large hadron collider becomes fully operational.  Nevertheless, it is a question we can answer in the future, unlike the question religion poses.

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36663#msg36663
« Reply #150 on: March 11, 2010, 07:17:43 pm »
mmm, these threads always come up, dont really change much really, except you might make a few enemy's if they are really self protective of there beliefs, anyway. I dont like getting involved in these threads too much.

Offline Demagog

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36700#msg36700
« Reply #151 on: March 11, 2010, 08:07:41 pm »
Quote
If you say, "I have to breath every moment of my life to live", is it any less true if you can't recall every last moment you've lived?
You don't have to breathe every moment of your life. And I'm not asking him to come up with this list from memory, I'm asking him to support his claim by posting every instance where religion and science have conflicted, and if the results of all those conflicts are in favor of science, we can accept his statement as true. If I made the statement saying that religion has defeated science in every situation, wouldn't you ask me to prove it?

Quote
No, because you're comparing two very different things.

In your example of religion, you're suggesting a very extreme skepticism (pretty much Kantian Idealism).  In this case, nothing can be proven because only mental abstractions can be known with absolute certainty.  In your second paragraph you're asking for proof, which means that you can no longer embrace that skepticism.

Science has reasons it postulates things.  They are looking for the Higgs boson because it is the only unknown in an equation that spans more than a page in length and unifies nearly all of standard particle physics.  It's not like they are arbitrarily looking around space hoping to find an answer.
Forgive me if some of my arguments were fundamentally wrong; I had been up for about 32 hours when I wrote that post, so I didn't exactly thing too critically. Thanks for reminding me of the name of that particle too, I had a false memory of it being Higgson-Boggs.


Quote
This is another vital flaw in your comparison: "... what if they never can prove or disprove it's existence?"
In the case of religion, short of some global miracle and/or some higher being exposing itself to everyone on the planet at the same time, you're correct to say you can never know for sure about the existence of a higher being.

In the case of science, by definition, something will always be able to be proven or disproven, with the only condition being we have the adequate technology for it.  This is because science does not deal in pure conjecture.  You can't just say "I think X exists because I feel it."  To be taken seriously, you have to say something like "Due to a previous experiment, I have reason to think X exists.  Further, we may test for X's existence by performing experiment Y."  For example, the question of whether or not the Higgs boson exists can be answered when CERN's large hadron collider becomes fully operational.  Nevertheless, it is a question we can answer in the future, unlike the question religion poses.
So what happens if the LHC becomes fully operational, and they can't find evidence of the Higgs boson? Will they say it doesn't exist, or will they say they don't have the technology to find it? If they could build a supercollider infinite in size (I'm pretty sure size is the main factor in how well these things work, but this is an assumption based on memory) and it didn't show any evidence of the particle, what would they decide? So if there is no way to prove its existence even though they believe it's there based on mathematical formulas, will they abandon it?


mmm, these threads always come up, dont really change much really, except you might make a few enemy's if they are really self protective of there beliefs, anyway. I dont like getting involved in these threads too much.
Go ahead and get involved. This isn't supposed to be a topic asking "Does a specific god exist," it's a topic asking "Do any gods exist, known or unknown?" It's supposed to be theoretical/philosophical conjecture more than defense of one's beliefs, whether theistic or atheistic. If it were the latter it would be completely pointless as it would be just like every other religion debate out there.

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36713#msg36713
« Reply #152 on: March 11, 2010, 08:37:03 pm »
So what happens if the LHC becomes fully operational, and they can't find evidence of the Higgs boson? Will they say it doesn't exist, or will they say they don't have the technology to find it? If they could build a supercollider infinite in size (I'm pretty sure size is the main factor in how well these things work, but this is an assumption based on memory) and it didn't show any evidence of the particle, what would they decide? So if there is no way to prove its existence even though they believe it's there based on mathematical formulas, will they abandon it?

If all the facts point to "No" they yes, they will abandon it and look for something new, or rework it to find something that fits with the Higgs boson not existing. Science is a never ending field, after all. As new facts are surfaced, so will new theories, new hypotheses, new equations, etc.
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Offline Demagog

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36719#msg36719
« Reply #153 on: March 11, 2010, 08:46:40 pm »
So what happens if the LHC becomes fully operational, and they can't find evidence of the Higgs boson? Will they say it doesn't exist, or will they say they don't have the technology to find it? If they could build a supercollider infinite in size (I'm pretty sure size is the main factor in how well these things work, but this is an assumption based on memory) and it didn't show any evidence of the particle, what would they decide? So if there is no way to prove its existence even though they believe it's there based on mathematical formulas, will they abandon it?

If all the facts point to "No" they yes, they will abandon it and look for something new, or rework it to find something that fits with the Higgs boson not existing. Science is a never ending field, after all. As new facts are surfaced, so will new theories, new hypotheses, new equations, etc.
I guess I asked the wrong question... if they know the existing equation is true and that they can never find the missing piece to the equation, then what? That's a theoretical question, not a realistic one. If they knew they could never find the rest of the equation but weren't sure the equation were true, they'd probably look for a new equation. I don't know if they know or believe the equation is true.

Offline tyranim

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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36760#msg36760
« Reply #154 on: March 11, 2010, 09:57:07 pm »
i just need to ask a question regarding this thread (no insult to the op), what is the purpose of this thread? just a place for people to have healthy debate? or is it a serious question? and why isnt there a poll? a poll seems like it can help a little with the arguments people are making.
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Re: Does God Exist? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=956.msg36819#msg36819
« Reply #155 on: March 11, 2010, 11:58:47 pm »
I guess I asked the wrong question... if they know the existing equation is true and that they can never find the missing piece to the equation, then what? That's a theoretical question, not a realistic one. If they knew they could never find the rest of the equation but weren't sure the equation were true, they'd probably look for a new equation. I don't know if they know or believe the equation is true.
I think your definition of truth is leading you astray here.  In religious matters, most people assert that a truth is universal and infallible, but science is much more pragmatic.  The truth of a theory is dependent on its ability to explain observations and to be verified.  A good way to think about truth in this case is "has not yet shown any significant contradictions with observations".

The standard model equation is currently accepted because it can explain our observations provided the Higgs boson is observed.  If the Higgs boson is not found, the equation is flawed and must be rethought.  But they won't have to start from scratch, because something will have to appear in the LHC instead of the Higgs that explains how particles have mass.  If absolutely all else fails, a new paradigm will be established to replace the old model.

I think a further thing to keep in mind here is a sense of scale of time with regard to this.  Recorded history has been around for what, 5,000 years, and our current atomic model is only just over 100 years old.  Of the 12 known elementary particles, the last quark was first observed in 1995 and the last neutrino in 2000, despite being theorized about 30 and 70 years earlier, respectively.  Even if it takes a a few decades to get an answer, the pace of modern science has been remarkable.

 

anything
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