Does God Exist?

[Kamietsu]

I wanted to quote you Puppy, but I didn't want to do the editing to only grab the one quote I want beacuse I feel like being lazy.

While a nice percentage of religious families are not too terribly strict, and that really is a case by case issue as everyone has different ideas to what strict would be, I also came from a strict religious family. Well, my grandparents anyway, since they took care of me the most. It was Church every sunday and wednesday, group bible readings constantly, the only thing I was glad to have was the freedom to go outside with my friends in the neighborhood. But as time went on, I began to stray from the religious path they wanted me to be on and started to become more strict, apparently thinking that would make me fall back onto the path. They restircted my time to be with friends, no longer allowed them to come inside the house, and my freshman year of high school, I wasn't allowed to watch TV unless it was the news during some big event (the california fires), was not allowed to hang out with my friends outside of school hours, no internet, no computer. I was forced to go to church every sunday, or else I would be grounded. Thankfully my lying ability was very strong, so I would just go out on sundays and walk around for awhile, or meet up with some friends, and when asked, I knew a lot about the bible anyway so I just thought of something bible related and said that's what the lesson was in church.

So while yes, what you do day to day Puppy is obviously not a very strict and rigorous process, leaving you lots of time for outside bible activities, some families do raise their children in a very strict household, even if the religion itself is not that strict at all. After awhile, what you do, Puppy, was along the lines of what I did, once I was free to make my own choices, my own decisions. My second girlfriend was a Pagan, so occasionally I would learn Paganism from her, and then I would go do some of my own research. I enjoyed it for awhile, but in the end I abandoned it and have been religionless ever since.

[PhuzzY LogiK]

Now, if you didn't know the background, what would you think that's implying? That's what quoting many verses of the Bible are like: without analyzing the word choice, allowing for translation problems, understanding the setting, understanding the time period, and such, you can come out with an entirely different meaning than intended. Granted, some verses can stand alone, but many DO require more knowledge to get the full meaning out of.

You would think an omnipotent, omnipresent, all-knowing being would have planned that out a little better...

[Kamietsu]

Now, if you didn't know the background, what would you think that's implying? That's what quoting many verses of the Bible are like: without analyzing the word choice, allowing for translation problems, understanding the setting, understanding the time period, and such, you can come out with an entirely different meaning than intended. Granted, some verses can stand alone, but many DO require more knowledge to get the full meaning out of.

You would think an omnipotent, omnipresent, all-knowing being would have planned that out a little better...

You can't say he/she/they didn't. They didn't write any religious text, man did. and we all know how fallible man is.

[PuppyChow]

As far as Jesus' teachings being 'current'.. Let's quote him: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

I'm fairly certain Jesus never said that . Almost positive, since some of the disciples WERE brothers. And I don't think they hated each other.



As to Kami, your grandparents were wrong. Forcing religion down someone's throat isn't how you get them to like it or follow its tenants.

[PhuzzY LogiK]

I believe with Demagog here. BELIEVING is called BELIEVING for a reason -- you can't prove it. You can't disprove it either.

You say you're 90% sure that there is no God. I say I'm 100% sure there is. Too bad we'll never know who's right.

On another note, I don't fully understand the rational behind not believing. Let's say you choose to believe and live a good Christian (or X religion) life. It turns out there is no God. Oh well, at least you had a positive impact on the world. If it turns out there IS a God, you get to have a big party.

If you choose not to believe (let's say you still live a moral life), and it turns out there is no God, congradulations! You were right! But it doesn't matter since you'll never know you were right since your "self" is gone as soon as your brain stops working! And if it turns out there IS a God, and you didn't believe, you get to go to a bad place. Sucks for you.

In short:
Believing: Worst case: Nothing, and you never know you were wrong. Best case: You get to have a big party in Heaven (or w/e your religion says).
Not Believing: Worst case: You go to Hell (or the bad place for your religion...) and have no fun at all. Best case: Nothing, and you never know you were right.

First of all, this is just Pascal's wager.  I've always liked William James' take on it: God will take a special pleasure in sending people to hell who only have "faith" because it serves their self interest the best.

Second of all, this is one big contradiction.  In your first line you state "BELIEVING is called BELIEVING for a reason -- you can't prove it. You can't disprove it either" and then you write a whole post as to your reasoning behind belief.  Do you want to subject belief to rigorous scrutiny or not?

I'm fairly certain Jesus never said that . Almost positive, since some of the disciples WERE brothers. And I don't think they hated each other.

A simple google search turns up that in Luke 14:26 Jesus says what you say he never said.

God loves you no matter who you are, bisexual, homosexual, or heterosexual.

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you even read the Bible, or just take what they give you at church?  Ever notice how they don't read some verses?  Have you ever heard a sermon read Genesis 19, where Lot offers his two daughters to be raped to protect the angels of god?  How about when the exact same story is plagiarized in Judges 19, except in that case a woman was actually raped to death and then cut into pieces?

To quote one of my previous posts:

Do you know what the oldest surviving version of the Bible is?  Do you know what language it's in?  Do you know when the New Testament was written?  Do you know in what order the gospels were written?  Do you know about Zoroaster/Mithras/Bacchus/etc and how the story of Jesus is directly plagiarized from them?  Do you know what role Constantine played in church history?  Do you know how the Bible was compiled, or why the Catholics have extra books?  Do you know why Catholic priests can't marry?

If you want to find someone who knows nothing about christianity, look for someone who has been spoon-fed by the church since birth.

You can't say he/she/they didn't. They didn't write any religious text, man did. and we all know how fallible man is.

The Bible was supposedly conveyed to man by the Holy Spirit.  God was still the author. 

Or you can admit man wrote it and god allowed it to be full of half truths and contradictions, as well as poorly translated over time.

So either god screwed up, or is incompetent.  Take your pick.

[PuppyChow]

A simple google search turns up that in Luke 14:26 Jesus says what you say he never said.

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Leviticus 20:13

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you even read the Bible, or just take what they give you at church?  Ever notice how they don't read some verses?  Have you ever heard a sermon read Genesis 19, where Lot offers his two daughters to be raped to protect the angels of god?  How about when the exact same story is plagiarized in Judges 19, except in that case a woman was actually raped to death and then cut into pieces?

Luke 14:26
Hate, in this instance, can mean many things. Indifference, for instance. Or, most likely, it simply means that your love of God must be so great to be a disciple that it must seem to others like you hate your family. ie, Your love of God must be exponentially greater than your love for your family. Seems fair.

Leviticus:
From the Old Testament, and Christianity focuses on Jesus's teachings, not the Old Testament's. Jesus dieing for your sins on the cross changes things.

1 Corinthians:
Yes, you won't go to heaven according to the Bible. But God still loves you. God hates sin, but loves everybody despite their sin.

Genesis 19:
Keep in mind the time period this takes place in. Back then, that was acceptable behavior: his daughters were like his property. He was offering to trade the rape of angels for the rape of two daughters.

This is more about the crime those in Sodom and Gomorrah committed anyway, not about the almost rape. God didn't allow the rape, of course.

Judges 19:
This time, the levite makes a mistake: he does just what you said. This story isn't an example of what to do. It's an example of what NOT to do. The story is also told to explain that Israel was just as bad as Sodom/Gomorrah during the time of Judges: the people of Gibeah had not been hospitable toward the levite, and then had demanded this of them. And the levite shares the blame with them for actually giving up the concubine.

[Kamietsu]

As to Kami, your grandparents were wrong. Forcing religion down someone's throat isn't how you get them to like it or follow its tenants.

Oh yeah, I know. But the thing is, that happens sort of often. Most of the people I know raised their kids in a semi-strict to strict religious household. Many of them were ok with it though, growing to be whichever religion they were raised. But a handful were more rebellious, not enjoying the concept of being force fed. And that's how a decently size portion of the people i've seen and met do things, not just to their kids, but to others as well. Many of the churches I've been too, the people there would press religion onto you if you gave the slightest inkling that you weren't as religious as they were. I've only met a handful of people that were open to outsiders, non-religious people, and just offered to help/teach me more about their religion if ever I wanted or asked.

As the popular quote says, "It's not God I dislike, it's his fan club." And if people continue to go about the way they are doing things, they are going to be getting a nice warm welcome from some demons.

[vrt]

As far as Jesus' teachings being 'current'.. Let's quote him: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

I'm fairly certain Jesus never said that . Almost positive, since some of the disciples WERE brothers. And I don't think they hated each other.

It's in the Bible. Are you denying your own holy book? Giving it your own interpretation.. Well, we know how well that's worked out. Crusades, anyone?

[PhuzzY LogiK]

Luke 14:26
Hate, in this instance, can mean many things. Indifference, for instance. Or, most likely, it simply means that your love of God must be so great to be a disciple that it must seem to others like you hate your family. ie, Your love of God must be exponentially greater than your love for your family. Seems fair.

I would agree with the last interpretation, but how is that "fair"?  As Nietzsche put it: "Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others.  The love of god, too."

Think of what this opens the door to.  Nuke a whole city for god? It can be done, because you love god exponentially more than anyone in that city.  Kill your children for god?  It's been done, countless times.  Kill a complete stranger because they express a different viewpoint?  Yep, because god is more important.  Hope for coexistence of religions?  Not under this doctrine.  God trumps everything.

There's a problem here.  You yourself admitted that god is a belief, "BELIEVING is called BELIEVING for a reason -- you can't prove it", and yet, with admittedly no proof, you think it's okay to love god so much you could sacrifice everything in the world for it?  Where do you draw the line?

Leviticus:
From the Old Testament, and Christianity focuses on Jesus's teachings, not the Old Testament's. Jesus dieing for your sins on the cross changes things.

Do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of god?  If so, then how can you just ignore the Old Testament?  Jesus overrode some procedural laws of the Jews, but never changed what was a sin.  Where does Jesus say "Nah, it's cool to be gay now?"

If, on the other hand, you're saying parts of the Bible are no longer relevant, why can't I just ignore it all? 

1 Corinthians:
Yes, you won't go to heaven according to the Bible. But God still loves you. God hates sin, but loves everybody despite their sin.

If he loves everyone so much, why even create hell or imperfections in the first place?  How can you love someone and condemn them to an eternity of a like of fire?  If one of my friends does something I don't like, I get over it, not cast them out of my life forever.  Am I a better friend than god?  Am I more forgiving than god?

Genesis 19:
Keep in mind the time period this takes place in. Back then, that was acceptable behavior: his daughters were like his property. He was offering to trade the rape of angels for the rape of two daughters.

 ...
  ...


So god's law is subservient to human culture?  So slavery was never wrong, it's just not in fashion anymore?  Do you even realize the implications of what you've said?  There is no moral standard, it's just what is considered "acceptable behavior" by humans?

[PuppyChow]

I would agree with the last interpretation, but how is that "fair"?  As Nietzsche put it: "Love of one is a barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others.  The love of god, too."

Think of what this opens the door to.  Nuke a whole city for god? It can be done, because you love god exponentially more than anyone in that city.  Kill your children for god?  It's been done, countless times.  Kill a complete stranger because they express a different viewpoint?  Yep, because god is more important.  Hope for coexistence of religions?  Not under this doctrine.  God trumps everything.

There's a problem here.  You yourself admitted that god is a belief, "BELIEVING is called BELIEVING for a reason -- you can't prove it", and yet, with admittedly no proof, you think it's okay to love god so much you could sacrifice everything in the world for it?  Where do you draw the line?

You shouldn't just focus on loving God. Ones duty is to love everybody do; "love your enemy as thyself". So no, you shouldn't go nuke somebody. Or kill somebody for different beliefs. You should try to change their beliefs, yes, but not kill them.

Just because you love God more doesn't mean you shouldn't love others.

Do I think it's okay to love God so much to give up everything for him? Yes, I do. A perfect Christian would do just that. The problem is that I'm not a perfect Christian, in fact nobody is. So yes, I do draw lines. That doesn't mean I'm right.

Leviticus:
From the Old Testament, and Christianity focuses on Jesus's teachings, not the Old Testament's. Jesus dieing for your sins on the cross changes things.

Do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of god?  If so, then how can you just ignore the Old Testament?  Jesus overrode some procedural laws of the Jews, but never changed what was a sin.  Where does Jesus say "Nah, it's cool to be gay now?"

If, on the other hand, you're saying parts of the Bible are no longer relevant, why can't I just ignore it all?

When Jesus died for us on the cross, he absolved us of sin. So yes, that does make that specific line rather irrelevant. The old testament is more like a history book: you CAN learn from it, but laws in it aren't necessarily true now. And some are.

1 Corinthians:
Yes, you won't go to heaven according to the Bible. But God still loves you. God hates sin, but loves everybody despite their sin.

If he loves everyone so much, why even create hell or imperfections in the first place?  How can you love someone and condemn them to an eternity of a like of fire?  If one of my friends does something I don't like, I get over it, not cast them out of my life forever.  Am I a better friend than god?  Am I more forgiving than god?

Three main points:

1) God didn't create hell. Satan, a fallen angel, did. God didn't create the imperfections either; in fact he made man in his own image according to the Bible. We were perfect. Until Adam and Eve got tempted by Satan, making us sinners.

2) To get into heaven, you must be perfect. That's impossible, unless you believe Jesus died for you on the cross for your sins. That absolves you. It's kinda like saying to get into a college you have to have a certain GPA. If you don't, well the college can still really like you and wish you luck, but they can't admit you. You don't have the standard. It's like that with God: he mourns that you didn't believe in Jesus, weeps for you, feels sad, etc. But he can't do anything about it.

3) In God's eyes, all sin is equal. And all sin is HORRIBLE. So imagine if your friend lied to you. In His eyes, that's the same as killing your parents. So instead imagine your friend killed your parents. Could you forgive him? God can, in fact already has, he just has to believe.

So no, you aren't more forgiving than God.

Genesis 19:
Keep in mind the time period this takes place in. Back then, that was acceptable behavior: his daughters were like his property. He was offering to trade the rape of angels for the rape of two daughters.

 ...
  ...


So god's law is subservient to human culture?  So slavery was never wrong, it's just not in fashion anymore?  Do you even realize the implications of what you've said?  There is no moral standard, it's just what is considered "acceptable behavior" by humans?

That wasn't the main point I was trying to make. In fact, it was more of a side point that at the time a father was allowed to do that.

In fact, the levite later is seen in a negative light and as a coward for doing the exact same thing in Judges 19.

[BluePriest]

Wow Puppychow, amazing job on all of this. Im enjoyin reading your responses to everything.

Just sorta for fun.

God wants us to all go to heaven.
We make the decision to go to heaven
The only way to go to heaven is to love God, believe his word, and that his son came down to earth and died for our sins.
God doesnt force us to love him.
That doesnt mean that he isnt all loving, it just means he gave us a choice in the matter.
He isnt a galactic serial rapist that forces us to love him. He lets us have a choice, and we must accept the consequenses for our choice.

I forget where i first heard it, but I love the whole galactic serial rapist bit.

[Zigabogado]

A NEW CHALLENGER HAS JOINED THE ARENA! 

And his/her name has Priest in it! Gasp.

Fight...BEGIN.