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Offline Chemist

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248148#msg248148
« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2011, 02:11:54 pm »
don't even start on probabilities. if it's an almighty being it is almighty enough to defy chance.
  Doesn't mean a thing. Of the zillion dieties I just mentioned a sizeable portion are almighty (including the yellow leprechaun). So when you call one of them more likely than the rest you really DO need to have some sort of explanation for that claim. Preferrably something that makes sense.
lets turn this around. what's the probability that the universe came out of nowhere and can produce planets that support life.
  That's not turning the matter around; it's dodging the issue. I'm not (currently) claiming that there isn't a diety out there. What I am claiming is that if there is then you have no way of actually knowing the first thing about it. (And if you define a diety by its traits then if you get those wrong then its not actually "the same" diety.) Presume a deity who just wants a universe to mess around with people. It goes on to make conflicting religions, causes wars, and in general has a lot of fun doing it. How could you prove that such a deity is any less likely than whichever you are proposing? Unfortunately for you you can not. You can cite the bible all you want, but if the deity is not above killing to further its goals then you can not assume it to always speak the truth, either.
one scientist (who had a lot of time on his hands) worked out the number taking all the factors in hand. some of the factors were; matter beating antimatter (not drawing because that would mean no nothing ever), gravitational balance, sub atomic balance, etc... until he got a figure.
that is 1 in X. X being a digit and then more zeros than there are stars in the universe. so don't even mention likely hoods.
And your source would be?

Ele124

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248157#msg248157
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2011, 02:26:32 pm »
This whole issue about probabilities is a null argument. A prominent big bang theory is that the process is recurring, easily allowing for infinite universes one after another. If the universe only has a gazilionth (or whatever your number is) of a chance of supporting life, then how do you know it hasnt previously existed a gazilion times and this is the first time it has supported sentient life that can havee this debate?

This is a lot like receiving 5 cards in a poker game (any 5 cards) and claiming that it was ridiculously unlikely to have received these exact cards, therefore you cant have received them. Probabilities are tricky and need to be treated very carefully.

Offline Chemist

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248210#msg248210
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2011, 04:12:56 pm »
This whole issue about probabilities is a null argument. A prominent big bang theory is that the process is recurring, easily allowing for infinite universes one after another. If the universe only has a gazilionth (or whatever your number is) of a chance of supporting life, then how do you know it hasnt previously existed a gazilion times and this is the first time it has supported sentient life that can havee this debate?

This is a lot like receiving 5 cards in a poker game (any 5 cards) and claiming that it was ridiculously unlikely to have received these exact cards, therefore you cant have received them. Probabilities are tricky and need to be treated very carefully.
  Not quite. I'm saying that when you receive exactly five random cards you are incredibly unlikely to have guessed them right (and that no matter how many people at the table trust in your having psychic powers).

  I'm NOT saying the chance of 'deity of choice' being the correct answer is zero. In fact I'm saying that it CAN'T be zero, because we can not disprove said deity. But without a reason to favour this deity over the zillion other ones that we also can not disprove (and whose chances of existing are hence also greater than zero) it can not be any more likely than any of those. And since there are so many of those the chances of each individual one being "the correct one" are very close to zero, that is negligible.

  When several theories are at odds, how do you determine which one is more likely to be correct? You look at which one is favoured by scientific evidence. When several deities are at odds, how do you determine which one is more likely to be correct? In absence of scientific evidence you may resort to making a choice based on 'evidence' the sort of which would never cut it by scientific standards. Which means it isn't worth very much.

killybob

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248241#msg248241
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2011, 05:17:05 pm »
mentioning the big ban has reminded me of another thing atheists say. they tell us that scientific evidence states that there is no God (evolution for example) but don't you think that the deity would want people to be able to observe the science that he created? saying that seems to further give evidence of a God.

please don't feel the need to reply to this point, it was just a little tangent from the current discussion :)

Daxx

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248408#msg248408
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2011, 08:28:50 pm »
what's the probability that the universe came out of nowhere and can produce planets that support life.
The probability that the consciousness and self awareness required to ask this question arises in a universe that can support life is 1. This is known as the anthropic principle.

they tell us that scientific evidence states that there is no God (evolution for example)
Firstly, you can't just say shit like that without giving a source. "Them" and "they" are weasel words which essentially mean that you don't know anyone who has actually said that, but you'd like to believe that they've said that.

Secondly, the theory of evolution by natural selection has precisely nothing to say on the existence or otherwise of deities. Similarly, there is no scientific evidence which states that there are no gods - all it has done is failed to confirm that gods exist, and replaced a lot of our old explanations which attributed the cause of natural phenomena to god.

but don't you think that the deity would want people to be able to observe the science that he created? saying that seems to further give evidence of a God.
If you attribute the scientific method to a god, then perhaps. But since that scientific is slowly chipping away at the questions which were previously filled by gods, it seems odd that such a deity would give us tools that steadily limit its remit over our universe and cause fewer people to believe in it.

More importantly this is really a cop-out. If you're willing to admit that the scientific method has removed any need to believe in a god or gods, then why continue to attribute the scientific method to those gods? It's like saying that Yahweh buried stone models of dinosaurs in the earth with intricate amounts of atomic decay matching to a theory that implies the age of the earth was far greater than he later revealed to his prophets, all for the sole purpose of trolling paleontologists and geologists a few thousand years later. Why would a god that is supposedly omnibenevolent purposefully lie to its creation?

Ele124

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248443#msg248443
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2011, 09:12:50 pm »
@Chemist Sorry, I shouldve made it clearer that I was replying to Killybobs point rather than yours. I was attempting to use an illustration to descrbe one of the difficulties in using probability to disprove somthing after it has happened.

  I'm NOT saying the chance of 'deity of choice' being the correct answer is zero. In fact I'm saying that it CAN'T be zero, because we can not disprove said deity. But without a reason to favour this deity over the zillion other ones that we also can not disprove (and whose chances of existing are hence also greater than zero) it can not be any more likely than any of those. And since there are so many of those the chances of each individual one being "the correct one" are very close to zero, that is negligible.
Hmm, if the probability of any given diety being "correct" is negligable (ie can be ignored), then that should mean that there are no dieties and atheism rules all :P Anyway, this is straying far too close to a sorites paradox and they realy get under my skin, so i'll leave this point.

  When several theories are at odds, how do you determine which one is more likely to be correct? You look at which one is favoured by scientific evidence. When several deities are at odds, how do you determine which one is more likely to be correct? In absence of scientific evidence you may resort to making a choice based on 'evidence' the sort of which would never cut it by scientific standards. Which means it isn't worth very much.
Yeah, I agree with this, whenever scientific reasoning is applied to anything religious, the result is invariably bad for religion. Naturally, scientific research isnt itself entirely infallible, every scientific theory to date is based on a set of assumptions which may or may not be true. However, it sure does seem to be more rock-steady than anything religion has to offer.

Offline doublecross

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248474#msg248474
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2011, 09:56:04 pm »
First of all, I rather like the premise of this post. It is completely true that there is a big difference between failing to prove something and disproving something.

If someone told you my middle name was Renfrew, and you had no evidence that he was telling the truth, this would not mean that this was evidence against that being my middle name.


However, that argument cannot be used as strongly in this case.

Humanity has always wanted to explain things. When we could not find an explanation, we would make one up, one that would explain every data point we would see.

Greco-roman mythology was a compilation of stories that would explain every event, because they lacked a better explanation.
For instance, winter was 3 months long, because the daughter of the harvest goddess ate three pomegranate seeds when in the underworld, and thus was bound there 3 months every year, during which time her mother would go into mourning, and all crops would wither.


When we fail to explain something with the natural, we turn to the supernatural, because any reason is, in the mind of man, better than no reason, regardless of its correctness.


Now, some intelligent readers may say that I have yet to disprove God at all, and have only stated a theory about where religion in general comes from that, even if correct, would not disprove God.

You would be correct. Bravo for you. (Or Brava, as the case may likely be. I have noticed a negative correlation between intelligence and number of Y chromosomes)



Anyways, my proof against God is this.

God, and religion explain what we were unable as a species to explain otherwise. As long as the original ignorance exists, then there exists no proof against the supernatural, and in fact, every occurrence of an un-explained phenomenon seems to serve as proof FOR the supernatural.


However, as soon as the correct explanation is found, any other explanations that are contradictory become un-arguably false.



Back to the mythology example:
The theory about the length of winter, as long as no other explanation is found, is strengthened  by  every seasonal cycle.  The fact that the myth provides an explanation for seasons, and that seasons keep happening, is the only proof for the myth.
When astronomy becomes known, and seasons are now explained by the movement of planets, a theory that not only explains the data points, but also holds up with the rest of science, and also measurements about planets, and all manners of other data and information, it becomes clear that the planets are the cause of the seasons.

This does serve as proof against the myth, because if would be illogical to claim that the reason for the seasons is simultaneously a grieving harvest goddess, and the movement of the planets. One explanation necessarily replaces the other, because, unless the contention that both the harvest goddess and the planetary movement both contribute, or take turns, is what one is claiming, then one cannot logical claim that both are the reason.


The same holds true for the existence of God.

Someone, a very long time ago, looked at the species diversity of our planet, and couldn't explain it. People had no idea where the world came from, and had no answers to what happened after death, or why people are intelligent, or any number of other things.

So, preferring any explanation to no explanation, religion came about.
Different parts of the world, not being able to compare notes with each other, all made up different stories, and all gained followers by claiming that their account was the word of God.

However, the answers to these questions are now known.

Religion will claim that the world is a few thousand years old, created by God in a single day.
Religion will claim that over the next 5 days (the next one being a day of rest), God created all the species of this planet.
Religion will claim that man gained out massive intelligence (which I am beginning to doubt exists), as a result of eating a forbidden fruit.

The proof for these claims is that someone made up a story that, if true, would explain everything he couldn't explain before. He had no other proof.
The proof for these claims is that someone very long ago, claimed that God said it, and people believed him.
The proof for these claims is that for a long time, no one had a better explanation. People liked "God did it", much better than "I honestly don't know"



However, all this proof goes away, when we now have a real explanation.
Science claims, and provides layers and layers of proof, that the world is millions of years old, and the universe older still. We have carbon dating, fossil records, radioactive decay, and, with powerful telescopes, have been able to see light from fractions of a second after the big bang, which is completely consistent with every other piece of scientific evidence.

We now know where species diversity comes from. With bacteria, we have even been able to observe it on a timescale that is shorter than a human life. We have seen bacteria evolve to become anti-biotic resistant, such that it is now a new species. We know how genetic mutations work, and know that they code for new heritable traits. We know that geographic isolation, and specialization both can lead to new species forming.

We know that human intelligence evolved slowly, and that, unlike what religion claims, man is not the only intelligent species.


These arguments appear to be attacking just the Judeo-Christian faiths, and not God in general.

It is true, I, as of yet, cannot do a test that conclusively proves that there is no God. (Though every case of someone shouting "God, if you are out there, give me a sign", being greeted by, at best, something that can be shown to already be about to happen, seems to provide serious evidence for either his non-existence or dickishness, or odd sense of humour)

However, I can say that everything that God used to be the only explanation for, now has a much more confirm-able,  logical, scientifically valid explanation, and that both explanations cannot logically both be correct.



I cannot say that God does not exist, and be able to 100% be logically sure.

I can however, contend that not only is there no proof for his existence, but that the existence of valid alternative explanations for what he allegedly has done, serve a proof against his existence.


Need I remind you that the Church has historically been anti-science (once it was clear that it didn't support their theories).
The church was against the Helio-centric model of the solar system for a very long time, and vehemently opposed the notion that orbits were not perfect circles.


So, yes. I do understand that not having of proof of God's existence is not the same as having proof against it. However, knowing and fully understanding that point, I can safely claim to have a strong, valid argument against him.



 
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

killybob

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248489#msg248489
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2011, 10:07:48 pm »
Firstly, you can't just say shit like that without giving a source. "Them" and "they" are weasel words which essentially mean that you don't know anyone who has actually said that, but you'd like to believe that they've said that.
Stephen Dawkin one of the most famous evolutionists in britain? Peter Atkins  Professor of chemistry at Lincoln College, Oxford in England? Julius Axelrod American Nobel Prize winning biochemist? the list is endless. And they all are famous for trying to gather evidence against religion.

Offline doublecross

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248496#msg248496
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2011, 10:12:51 pm »
By Stephen Dawkins, I assume you mean Richard Dawkins, authour of the Selfish Gene, and The Extended Phenotype, and myriad others.

I appreciate the help in providing names, but I would prefer if they are correct.
I am doing a major/minor combination that involves both Biology and Game Theory, and Richard Dawkins was the first to combine the two.


Interestingly enough, he was also the first to coin the word "Meme", which was short for "Memetic replicator", which referred to how the concept of evolution doesn't just work for life, but instead for anything that is able to at all effect the likelihood that more copies of it will exist in the future, and thus that the concepts behind evolution could just as easily be applied to ideas. Thus, memes.


If I have time, I will start a thread "Is Religion A Meme?"   I mean, I know that the answer is yes (if you really want me to I can explain), but am curious about your thoughts.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

killybob

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248508#msg248508
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2011, 10:18:51 pm »
By Stephen Dawkins, I assume you mean Richard Dawkins, authour of the Selfish Gene, and The Extended Phenotype, and myriad others.

 >:( >:( >:( >:( aaaaaaaah im always getting mixed up!!! kill me now

Offline doublecross

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248509#msg248509
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2011, 10:20:29 pm »
No problem mate. I am glad you knew him. It is clear that you didn't just Google "Evolutionary Biologists".     And it is not like you put Stephen J. Gould or anything. (A biologist I tend to disagree with, as does Dawkins)
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

killybob

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg248511#msg248511
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2011, 10:21:34 pm »
If I have time, I will start a thread "Is Religion A Meme?"   I mean, I know that the answer is yes (if you really want me to I can explain), but am curious about your thoughts.
even though i don't seem that towards science i actually am. greatly. that idea does sound both brilliant and interesting. please do :)

 

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