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Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg333757#msg333757
« Reply #240 on: May 14, 2011, 10:31:22 pm »
If God is omnipotent, and he wants me to believe in him, then he will simply use his omnipotence to make me believe in him. I don't believe in him right now, so there are two possibilities. One, he wants me to believe in him, but he is not omnipotent so he cannot make me believe in him. Two, he is omnipotent, but he does not make me believe in him because he does not want me to. So why should I believe in God if he is not omnipotent or if he doesn't want me to?

Don't tell me that God is simply trying to make me believe in him through his followers. If you try to convert me, I guarantee that you have less than one percent chance of success. If God really wants to convert me, and is omnipotent, he would have surely used a more reliable method.
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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg333761#msg333761
« Reply #241 on: May 14, 2011, 10:35:52 pm »
If God is omnipotent, and he wants me to believe in him, then he will simply use his omnipotence to make me believe in him. I don't believe in him right now, so there are two possibilities. One, he wants me to believe in him, but he is not omnipotent so he cannot make me believe in him. Two, he is omnipotent, but he does not make me believe in him because he does not want me to. So why should I believe in God if he is not omnipotent or if he doesn't want me to?

Don't tell me that God is simply trying to make me believe in him through his followers. If you try to convert me, I guarantee that you have less than one percent chance of success. If God really wants to convert me, and is omnipotent, he would have surely used a more reliable method.
It seems like we examine God on an efficiency level. "He has more reliable methods" and other statements like that make it seem so. The question is, though God may be omnipotent or omniscient, is he efficient? Does he prefer to have his will carried out at every possible end, and leave no loose ends?
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Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg333789#msg333789
« Reply #242 on: May 14, 2011, 11:07:08 pm »
If the premise is that God is omnipotent, then why wouldn't he be efficient? He can do anything, after all.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg334978#msg334978
« Reply #243 on: May 16, 2011, 09:38:09 pm »
If God is omnipotent you will run in several paradoxes :)
Same about perfection and similar questions.

So God is omnipotent by definition.If you try to deny this, others will build huge wall of text :D

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg334990#msg334990
« Reply #244 on: May 16, 2011, 09:47:22 pm »
If God is omnipotent you will run in several paradoxes :)
Same about perfection and similar questions.

So God is omnipotent by definition.If you try to deny this, others will build huge wall of text :D
It all depends on what you mean by the string of characters "o-m-n-i-p-o-t-e-n-t".
Ex:
Quote
His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can.'... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

– Lewis, 18
This is the type of omnipotence typically attributed to deities by believers.
Alternatively there is the type of omnipotence that permits logical contradictions for a deity. This definition is typically used by non believers.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg335141#msg335141
« Reply #245 on: May 17, 2011, 01:32:47 am »
If God is omnipotent you will run in several paradoxes :)
Same about perfection and similar questions.

So God is omnipotent by definition.If you try to deny this, others will build huge wall of text :D
It all depends on what you mean by the string of characters "o-m-n-i-p-o-t-e-n-t".
Ex:
Quote
His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can.'... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

– Lewis, 18
This is the type of omnipotence typically attributed to deities by believers.
Alternatively there is the type of omnipotence that permits logical contradictions for a deity. This definition is typically used by non believers.
I was very interested in what Lewis had to say about omnipotence in The Problem of Pain when I read it years ago. To my surprise, I could not find a flaw in his argument. I admit that it's possible that this is the best possible world -- that evil exists only because a world with less evil would somehow contradict itself or be worse in other ways. It certainly seems obvious that you could improve this world quite dramatically with infinite power, but of course, the subtle contradictions could be escaping us. Yes, it's true: everything, even the most horribly bad thing, could all be a part of God's great plan, which is of course beyond human comprehension.

But I wouldn't bet on it. Just because something's possible doesn't mean it's likely :P

If God is omnipotent, and he wants me to believe in him, then he will simply use his omnipotence to make me believe in him. I don't believe in him right now, so there are two possibilities. One, he wants me to believe in him, but he is not omnipotent so he cannot make me believe in him. Two, he is omnipotent, but he does not make me believe in him because he does not want me to. So why should I believe in God if he is not omnipotent or if he doesn't want me to?

Don't tell me that God is simply trying to make me believe in him through his followers. If you try to convert me, I guarantee that you have less than one percent chance of success. If God really wants to convert me, and is omnipotent, he would have surely used a more reliable method.
Maybe it's all part of a magical storybook adventure God is making of your life. Perhaps you're just not supposed to believe yet. What may seem unreliable is a sure thing for someone who skips to the last page. There is no God, you die, and that's it. :P
I agree, though. I think if he wanted us to believe in something, he'd give us some kind of evidence.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg335148#msg335148
« Reply #246 on: May 17, 2011, 01:42:39 am »
I agree, though. I think if he wanted us to believe in something, he'd give us some kind of evidence.
What hypothetical evidence would be sufficient to disprove atheism?
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg335157#msg335157
« Reply #247 on: May 17, 2011, 02:01:14 am »
I agree, though. I think if he wanted us to believe in something, he'd give us some kind of evidence.
What hypothetical evidence would be sufficient to disprove atheism?
Well for one thing, God could answer our prayers. Literally. I don't think you can "disprove" atheism anymore than you can disprove theism, but you can certainly make it seem a lot more likely.

Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg335191#msg335191
« Reply #248 on: May 17, 2011, 03:07:58 am »
Quote
Maybe it's all part of a magical storybook adventure God is making of your life. Perhaps you're just not supposed to believe yet.
Okay, stop trying to convert me then :P

Other than that, I suppose there's no other counter to my argument? Then I won't believe in your God, because he obviously doesn't want me to at the moment. If he exists.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg335195#msg335195
« Reply #249 on: May 17, 2011, 03:21:27 am »
Quote
Maybe it's all part of a magical storybook adventure God is making of your life. Perhaps you're just not supposed to believe yet.
Okay, stop trying to convert me then :P

Other than that, I suppose there's no other counter to my argument? Then I won't believe in your God, because he obviously doesn't want me to at the moment. If he exists.
To be more accurate:
If you disbelieve and a god exists and that god is powerful enough to make you believe then the god prefers the consequences of you not believing at this moment over the consequences of you believing at this moment

However, assuming a god exists and does not want to disable your rational thought process, what would be sufficient to convince you?
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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg335212#msg335212
« Reply #250 on: May 17, 2011, 03:51:10 am »
About all this "if god wants me to believe in him, he would just make me" talk in this thread, I heard some stupid explanation from one of my friends. They said that god gives you free will to do what you want in life, but that if you make the one small mistake of not believing, you will eternally burn in a lake of fire, which you only find out after death. I don't see the logic in this, because I would rather have no control over one small thing if it determines whether I burn forever, or have unlimited joy forever.

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg335276#msg335276
« Reply #251 on: May 17, 2011, 05:19:44 am »
About all this "if god wants me to believe in him, he would just make me" talk in this thread, I heard some stupid explanation from one of my friends. They said that god gives you free will to do what you want in life, but that if you make the one small mistake of not believing, you will eternally burn in a lake of fire, which you only find out after death. I don't see the logic in this, because I would rather have no control over one small thing if it determines whether I burn forever, or have unlimited joy forever.
ya but then life would be pointless  ::)

 

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