Does anyone have a strong argument against God?

[Nepycros]

Quantum theory: Nothing is real until observed. I have not observed God.

Don't ask me what "observe" means. I don't know the exact requirements for something to be a "conscious observer". I've only read a little bit into quantum theory, but nothing I've read told me the exact qualifications for observant consciousness. And when you think about it, consciousness doesn't really exist, since the brain is just an arrangement of subatomic particles. There might be some kind of "soul particle" that allows consciousness, but it's up to the physicists to find it.

How about this. God is a probability wave function. He is nether existent nor nonexistent. You Christians believe in (observed) God, so you collapsed the quantum waveform of God and made Him exist. We atheists don't believe in God and cannot observe Him, so for us God is not real. We can't prove God doesn't exist, but we can't prove He exists either.

I am christian and im proud of it.
There is a lot of people in this world and all of them have difrent personality and difrent bolieves, witch is a good thing cuz it makes us  what we are. Christian, atheist , budist ... we must believe in something or we are nothing . The point about god is not that he exosts or not it is just that believe in him makes beter people cuz all goods have some rules or choices that you need to make to go in heavon.But the most important thing is to have feit in your self!!


Cheers and best wishes  8)

At the very least, attempt english.

Your point is flawed in that not all people need to have a belief in order to have what you claim to have (a sense of self-worth). Being human isn't about having some sense of spirituality with a metaphysical force. It's being an organism that prolongs its own existence and transfers genetic data to the next line. That much is not left up to a mysterious and undetectable presence in the universe.

"We must believe in something or we are nothing." Not necessarily. Are you claiming that agnostics are heartless?

Rules and choices to "get into heaven" are imposed moral codes that are developed by people in power who agree whether or not something is "right" or "wrong". Examples include the fact that, until more recent centuries (or milennia), humanity in general has developed a higher sense of value. Before this swing in an empathic direction, murder, rape, pillaging, etc. was actually ENCOURAGED by those who claimed to be "children of God". Simply reading about the things that the followers of God did in the Old Testament amount to that. Over time, morality changes. It's never set in stone, and those in power decide what it is to be good or evil.

Having faith in yourself and having a God to believe in are 2 separate things. Therefore, your closing argument is invalid.

[daccoo]

Quantum theory: Nothing is real until observed. I have not observed God.

Don't ask me what "observe" means. I don't know the exact requirements for something to be a "conscious observer". I've only read a little bit into quantum theory, but nothing I've read told me the exact qualifications for observant consciousness. And when you think about it, consciousness doesn't really exist, since the brain is just an arrangement of subatomic particles. There might be some kind of "soul particle" that allows consciousness, but it's up to the physicists to find it.

How about this. God is a probability wave function. He is nether existent nor nonexistent. You Christians believe in (observed) God, so you collapsed the quantum waveform of God and made Him exist. We atheists don't believe in God and cannot observe Him, so for us God is not real. We can't prove God doesn't exist, but we can't prove He exists either.

I am christian and im proud of it.
There is a lot of people in this world and all of them have difrent personality and difrent bolieves, witch is a good thing cuz it makes us  what we are. Christian, atheist , budist ... we must believe in something or we are nothing . The point about god is not that he exosts or not it is just that believe in him makes beter people cuz all goods have some rules or choices that you need to make to go in heavon.But the most important thing is to have feit in your self!!


Cheers and best wishes  8)

At the very least, attempt english.

Your point is flawed in that not all people need to have a belief in order to have what you claim to have (a sense of self-worth). Being human isn't about having some sense of spirituality with a metaphysical force. It's being an organism that prolongs its own existence and transfers genetic data to the next line. That much is not left up to a mysterious and undetectable presence in the universe.

"We must believe in something or we are nothing." Not necessarily. Are you claiming that agnostics are heartless?

Rules and choices to "get into heaven" are imposed moral codes that are developed by people in power who agree whether or not something is "right" or "wrong". Examples include the fact that, until more recent centuries (or milennia), humanity in general has developed a higher sense of value. Before this swing in an empathic direction, murder, rape, pillaging, etc. was actually ENCOURAGED by those who claimed to be "children of God". Simply reading about the things that the followers of God did in the Old Testament amount to that. Over time, morality changes. It's never set in stone, and those in power decide what it is to be good or evil.

Having faith in yourself and having a God to believe in are 2 separate things. Therefore, your closing argument is invalid.

 Well m8 my english is not that good but your sarcasm will not help  .
"Having faith in yourself and having a God to believe in are 2 separate things." It all depends with the way that you were raised , if you respect your self you will respect others ( if you have feith in your self you will have feith in something that you believe) .
I didnt wanted to mix science in this cuz sience and feith do not get a long, there are something that happend and even science cant explane them.
And as i told you there is X No. in the world and all have difrent way of thinking so this topic is same as discuss about why do you like green color and i do not ( it is pointless to discuss about it ) .


Nvm and sry if insult you in some way (i learned few things from your answer so im cool) .

Cheers and best wishes (grammatical errors are the result of not having coffee atm    )

[Bloodshadow]

I didnt wanted to mix science in this cuz sience and feith do not get a long, there are something that happend and even science cant explane them.

This entire statement is absolutely ridiculous. My metaphysical/philosophical beliefs are entirely derived from real physics. And of course science can explain everything, because the very purpose of science is to explain things. Nothing can bypass logic and reason. I'm absolutely sick of the "science can't explain everything" statement, because science is f***ing intended to explain things.

[Nepycros]

I didnt wanted to mix science in this cuz sience and feith do not get a long, there are something that happend and even science cant explane them.

This entire statement is absolutely ridiculous. My metaphysical/philosophical beliefs are entirely derived from real physics. And of course science can explain everything, because the very purpose of science is to explain things. Nothing can bypass logic and reason. I'm absolutely sick of the "science can't explain everything" statement, because science is f***ing intended to explain things.

"Science and faith don't get along."
As in Bloodshadow's situation, it's clearly possible to have faith in science itself, not necessarily in some metaphysical force governing the universe from offscreen.

[daccoo]

I didnt wanted to mix science in this cuz sience and feith do not get a long, there are something that happend and even science cant explane them.

This entire statement is absolutely ridiculous. My metaphysical/philosophical beliefs are entirely derived from real physics. And of course science can explain everything, because the very purpose of science is to explain things. Nothing can bypass logic and reason. I'm absolutely sick of the "science can't explain everything" statement, because science is f***ing intended to explain things.

I now m8, we were just chating i do not know why are you so nervous and angry .

- "I'm absolutely sick of the "science can't explain everything" statement, because science is f***ing intended to explain things."    Day will come when things will be clear, but it is not now .Science progress is fast atm. so well see what will happen in the future and one day we will have answers for sure.

Just chill and relax plz.

Cheers and best wishes 8)

[OldTrees]

I didnt wanted to mix science in this cuz sience and feith do not get a long, there are something that happend and even science cant explane them.

This entire statement is absolutely ridiculous. My metaphysical/philosophical beliefs are entirely derived from real physics. And of course science can explain everything, because the very purpose of science is to explain things. Nothing can bypass logic and reason. I'm absolutely sick of the "science can't explain everything" statement, because science is f***ing intended to explain things.

No.
Science is intended to discover all falsifiable knowledge. Non falsifiable claims are not valid scientific hypotheses even when true.

[Neopergoss]

If God is so powerful he should really be able to create angels capable of glorifying him. Why choice between good and evil should be the only method of glorification is beyond me. It sounds like a special pleading.

Its responses like this that let me know who really understands Gods love for us and who doesn't. It is most similar to a father wanting his child to understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding that the child will reach an age where he must make his own choices, and face the consequences/

If God created the universe, he didn't have to make Hell the alternative to Heaven. Seems pretty sadistic -- not loving. "The consequences" could've been whatever he chose them to be. He also controls the whole universe, including each person's environment. You'd think he'd be able to craft each person's upbringing such that they all grew up to be good people -- if he were such a good "father." If the answer to that is that some people are just born rotten, destined to become evil, you'd think he'd be able to prevent them from being born that way.

It takes some serious doublethink to accept these kinds of ideas.

No, you just WANT to see it one way, therefor it is very easy for you to see it that way, meanwhile, it is hard for me to look at it through your angle due to me understanding God better (although we can never truely understand him).

Your basic responses (that you continously go back to) are:
1)God doesnt force me to be good, so he is just cruel
2)God allows evil to be in the world, so he must not really care.
3)God will send us to hell, and punishment is unfair.

My 3 basic responses are:
1)You arent truely good if you are forced to be good
2)God allows us to make our own choices, even if those choices are evil.
3)You send yourself to hell based on your choices.

I can go into semantics such as how Hell wasnt created for us, and all sorts of things, however, those mean nothing and are just further extrapolative reasonings of these 3 basic ideas. Bringing up examples isnt even necessary.

I never said we should be forced to be good, it just shouldn't be so hard. It doesn't have to be hard, but it is. Wouldn't it still be a choice if 99.999% of all people were on average likely to succeed? What if the chance was so high that odds were that no one failed? The odds can be whatever God makes them, and he made us poor students taking a hard test.

As for God allowing evil in the world -- he doesn't just allow us to be evil, he's also responsible for catastrophic natural disasters such as the recent tsunami in Japan. I'm sure he had a good reason for that, though. I hope they learned whatever lesson they were supposed to over there, right? Or are they all going to Hell anyway because they weren't baptized or didn't believe in Christ?

As for sending ourselves to Hell, that's ridiculous -- God is responsible for the existence of Hell, end of story. You can rationalize all you want, but the fact is that it's irrational. Bring up "examples" if you want, but rationalizing the irrational is a pointless exercise.

[silux]

I don't know if God exist or not but He has helped me so much.
He is also very friendly^^

[Spiraler]

Well, you can't just say just because he hasn't been proven, that he can't be real. BUT, you also can't say that just because he hasn't been dis proven, he's real. I just personally don't see anything realistic about any of the religions. It just makes more sense to me that once we die, that's it for us. I mean, we all know the dark ages caused by religion, and what could be without them. We could possibly even be 1,000 years more advanced. I just want to say that whether you believe in a god, many gods, or none at all, I don't think that should change much about you. One final comment, I just want to say that religion shouldn't change any opinion of anything.

[Bloodshadow]

No.
Science is intended to discover all falsifiable knowledge. Non falsifiable claims are not valid scientific hypotheses even when true.

Science (from Latin: scientia meaning "knowledge") is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world.

I think this explanation is better than yours, OT. Science should be able to explain everything, because its scope is just as limitless as religion.

I now m8, we were just chating i do not know why are you so nervous and angry .

Just chill and relax plz.

How can I not be angry when you Christians say I will burn in Hell forever for not believing your dogma? This has irritated me ever since my first contact with Christianity.

[Spiraler]

How can I not be angry when you Christians say I will burn in Hell forever for not believing your dogma? This has irritated me ever since my first contact with Christianity.

I hate this as well. I think that if you think this, just please keep it to yourself.

[OldTrees]

No.
Science is intended to discover all falsifiable knowledge. Non falsifiable claims are not valid scientific hypotheses even when true.

Science (from Latin: scientia meaning "knowledge") is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world.

I think this explanation is better than yours, OT. Science should be able to explain everything, because its scope is just as limitless as religion.

Falsifiable means that a test would disprove it if it were wrong. AKA testable explanations are falsifiable explanations. Explanations that are not testable are not falsifiable.

Falsifiability or refutability is the logical possibility that an assertion could be shown false by a particular observation or physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, it means that if the statement were false, then its falsehood could be demonstrated.