Does anyone have a strong argument against God?

[Neopergoss]

Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?

Because Angels cannot glorify God. It is the test that give mortals the ability to glorify God.

Why can't angels glorify God? How does this test give us this ability? Are you making this up?

I am not making it up. It is second(or greater) hand information when I asked a Christian. The test gives us the ability because it is a symptom of our ability to choose and our ability to choose is what permits us to glorify god.

If God is so powerful he should really be able to create angels capable of glorifying him. Why choice between good and evil should be the only method of glorification is beyond me. It sounds like a special pleading.

[BluePriest]

If God is so powerful he should really be able to create angels capable of glorifying him. Why choice between good and evil should be the only method of glorification is beyond me. It sounds like a special pleading.

Its responses like this that let me know who really understands Gods love for us and who doesn't. It is most similar to a father wanting his child to understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding that the child will reach an age where he must make his own choices, and face the consequences/

[QuantumT]

If God is so powerful he should really be able to create angels capable of glorifying him. Why choice between good and evil should be the only method of glorification is beyond me. It sounds like a special pleading.

Its responses like this that let me know who really understands Gods love for us and who doesn't. It is most similar to a father wanting his child to understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding that the child will reach an age where he must make his own choices, and face the consequences/

Except I find it unlikely that the father would wish eternal suffering on his son, regardless of the choices he made.

[UTAlan]

Except I find it unlikely that the father would wish eternal suffering on his son, regardless of the choices he made.

I agree. God doesn't wish that for anyone.

[Neopergoss]

Except I find it unlikely that the father would wish eternal suffering on his son, regardless of the choices he made.

I agree. God doesn't wish that for anyone.

Except that it's necessary for him to be glorified for some people to be tested, some of whom will inevitably face eternal suffering. Of course, his glorification is more important than that, though.

[UTAlan]

People having a choice of whether or not to worship Him is more important than them being forced to do so. Unfortunately, that allows people to choose to not worship Him, and therefore spend eternity without Him.

[Neopergoss]

If God is so powerful he should really be able to create angels capable of glorifying him. Why choice between good and evil should be the only method of glorification is beyond me. It sounds like a special pleading.

Its responses like this that let me know who really understands Gods love for us and who doesn't. It is most similar to a father wanting his child to understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding that the child will reach an age where he must make his own choices, and face the consequences/

If God created the universe, he didn't have to make Hell the alternative to Heaven. Seems pretty sadistic -- not loving. "The consequences" could've been whatever he chose them to be. He also controls the whole universe, including each person's environment. You'd think he'd be able to craft each person's upbringing such that they all grew up to be good people -- if he were such a good "father." If the answer to that is that some people are just born rotten, destined to become evil, you'd think he'd be able to prevent them from being born that way.

It takes some serious doublethink to accept these kinds of ideas.

[BluePriest]

If God is so powerful he should really be able to create angels capable of glorifying him. Why choice between good and evil should be the only method of glorification is beyond me. It sounds like a special pleading.

Its responses like this that let me know who really understands Gods love for us and who doesn't. It is most similar to a father wanting his child to understand the difference between right and wrong, but understanding that the child will reach an age where he must make his own choices, and face the consequences/

If God created the universe, he didn't have to make Hell the alternative to Heaven. Seems pretty sadistic -- not loving. "The consequences" could've been whatever he chose them to be. He also controls the whole universe, including each person's environment. You'd think he'd be able to craft each person's upbringing such that they all grew up to be good people -- if he were such a good "father." If the answer to that is that some people are just born rotten, destined to become evil, you'd think he'd be able to prevent them from being born that way.

It takes some serious doublethink to accept these kinds of ideas.

No, you just WANT to see it one way, therefor it is very easy for you to see it that way, meanwhile, it is hard for me to look at it through your angle due to me understanding God better (although we can never truely understand him).

Your basic responses (that you continously go back to) are:
1)God doesnt force me to be good, so he is just cruel
2)God allows evil to be in the world, so he must not really care.
3)God will send us to hell, and punishment is unfair.

My 3 basic responses are:
1)You arent truely good if you are forced to be good
2)God allows us to make our own choices, even if those choices are evil.
3)You send yourself to hell based on your choices.

I can go into semantics such as how Hell wasnt created for us, and all sorts of things, however, those mean nothing and are just further extrapolative reasonings of these 3 basic ideas. Bringing up examples isnt even necessary.

[Cel]

A point I would like to bring up is the mater of how the world was created, putting God aside, how did it happen?

We have about 3-5 popular theories, all of which are full of holes and cannot fully be explained, I would give examples, but I can't really remember them. ^^"

Anyway, I shall tell you a story, one day, a high level scientist became charismatic and turned to god, he told the other scientist, "Why don't you guys even allow God to be considered in the creation of earth?" and the scientists, annoyed that he had become charismatic, fired him.

Yep. Just because of that.

One scientist went so far as to make a book called 'The Delusions of God' that said how believing in God was stupid, and that everyone who does is an idiot. The scientist who was fired in turn made a book called 'The Delusions of [Insert name of scientist]' that countered everything he said against God.

The scientist still wouldn't believe in God.

The ex-scientist had and interview with the scientist and personally countered every single creation theory that he could think up.  He ran out of options and said;
"Well, there is still one haven't mentioned, the earth was just a lifeless rock in space and something came and brought germs here."
The ex-scientist: "So your saying aliens came on to earth, had a picnic and left some trash on earth, then left, and those germs evolved into humans?"
Scientist: "Yes."
The ex-scientist: "Well, I don't have a counter for that one."

So, the only theory the scientist had left was one that was even more ridiculous than God.

Thank you for reading through my bone wall of opinion. If you want to learn more about those scientists there is a movie called 'Expelled: no intelligence allowed' that gos further into the subject. If you find any of my facts do not check with the movie or are in some parts exaggerated, I apologize, it has been a long time since I watched that movie and I may have gotten some things wrong. Now I'm gonna go rest my fingers  .

[Nepycros]

If God did make the universe, and is truly omnipotent, then that means He chose the initial configurations by which this universe's laws stand. He created us by these means, and through our observations, we have created a definition of "free will" that is satisfactory when it comes to everyday life.

Consider the anthropic principle, which states that the we see the universe this way because, if it was different, we would not be alive to see it. Now, considering this, that actually presets a level of conceitedness on our own existence. Consider that we AREN'T at the "highest level" of free will, that is offered by the omnipotency of God, but are, in fact, only given a portion of free will that He has chosen to give us? Through this, it's like looking at a bird in a cage with no way to look out of the bars. Their universe is contained in the cage, and they live by the laws of the cage, in that they believe that their maximum potential freedom is offered in that tiny space.

Saying God COULDN'T offer us higher "free will" would be ideally moronic, since that contradicts the concept that He is omnipotent. God knew full well what He was making. Should He have designed us in a way that we were inherently empathic and loyal to Him, we would not object, because that would be the maximum scope by which we understand ourselves and the universe... Just like the way it is now.

[Bloodshadow]

Free will does not exist. The universe is merely a purely material construct of mass and energy, driven by the laws of physics which arised from the spontaneous random creation from nothingness. This explanation alone is enough to satisfy me, because everything is ordered and makes sense; I don't know about the details but I believe that they can be found if we try hard enough. I don't see the need for an omnipotent creator like the Christian God.

[daccoo]

Quantum theory: Nothing is real until observed. I have not observed God.

Don't ask me what "observe" means. I don't know the exact requirements for something to be a "conscious observer". I've only read a little bit into quantum theory, but nothing I've read told me the exact qualifications for observant consciousness. And when you think about it, consciousness doesn't really exist, since the brain is just an arrangement of subatomic particles. There might be some kind of "soul particle" that allows consciousness, but it's up to the physicists to find it.

How about this. God is a probability wave function. He is nether existent nor nonexistent. You Christians believe in (observed) God, so you collapsed the quantum waveform of God and made Him exist. We atheists don't believe in God and cannot observe Him, so for us God is not real. We can't prove God doesn't exist, but we can't prove He exists either.

I am christian and im proud of it.
There is a lot of people in this world and all of them have difrent personality and difrent bolieves, witch is a good thing cuz it makes us  what we are. Christian, atheist , budist ... we must believe in something or we are nothing . The point about god is not that he exosts or not it is just that believe in him makes beter people cuz all goods have some rules or choices that you need to make to go in heavon.But the most important thing is to have feit in your self!!


Cheers and best wishes  8)