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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg326848#msg326848
« Reply #132 on: May 04, 2011, 06:08:50 pm »
Why? There's no evidence that he has my well being in mind.
Well of course, we don't. That's just the argument I've heard. Indeed, there is no evidence that God even exists, nevermind whether he has our best interests at heart. Quite an absurd position, if you ask me, but millions of people subscribe to it.

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg326850#msg326850
« Reply #133 on: May 04, 2011, 06:09:28 pm »
Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?
Because Angels cannot glorify God. It is the test that give mortals the ability to glorify God.
Why can't angels glorify God? How does this test give us this ability? Are you making this up?

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg326855#msg326855
« Reply #134 on: May 04, 2011, 06:17:28 pm »
Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?
Because Angels cannot glorify God. It is the test that give mortals the ability to glorify God.
Why can't angels glorify God? How does this test give us this ability? Are you making this up?
I am not making it up. It is second(or greater) hand information when I asked a Christian. The test gives us the ability because it is a symptom of our ability to choose and our ability to choose is what permits us to glorify god.
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Offline YoungSot

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg326870#msg326870
« Reply #135 on: May 04, 2011, 06:26:03 pm »
Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?
Because Angels cannot glorify God. It is the test that give mortals the ability to glorify God.
Why can't angels glorify God? How does this test give us this ability? Are you making this up?
I am not making it up. It is second(or greater) hand information when I asked a Christian. The test gives us the ability because it is a symptom of our ability to choose and our ability to choose is what permits us to glorify god.
Though just to clarify, that idea isn't a Biblical principle or anything, It's just a theory that some Christians hold to.

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg326878#msg326878
« Reply #136 on: May 04, 2011, 06:31:57 pm »
Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?
Because Angels cannot glorify God. It is the test that give mortals the ability to glorify God.
Why can't angels glorify God? How does this test give us this ability? Are you making this up?
I am not making it up. It is second(or greater) hand information when I asked a Christian. The test gives us the ability because it is a symptom of our ability to choose and our ability to choose is what permits us to glorify god.
Though just to clarify, that idea isn't a Biblical principle or anything, It's just a theory that some Christians hold to.
I would not know how to separate an interpretation of a theologian from a Biblical principle.
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Offline YoungSot

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg326885#msg326885
« Reply #137 on: May 04, 2011, 06:46:17 pm »
Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?
Because Angels cannot glorify God. It is the test that give mortals the ability to glorify God.
Why can't angels glorify God? How does this test give us this ability? Are you making this up?
I am not making it up. It is second(or greater) hand information when I asked a Christian. The test gives us the ability because it is a symptom of our ability to choose and our ability to choose is what permits us to glorify god.
Though just to clarify, that idea isn't a Biblical principle or anything, It's just a theory that some Christians hold to.
I would not know how to separate an interpretation of a theologian from a Biblical principle.
Simply put, the Bible never says that we need free will to glorify God, nor does it say that angels don't already glorify God. The Bible doesn't really address the ultimate reason for the universe running the way it does, it just tells us what God is like and how we ought to act in order to have the proper relationship with him.
I'm not saying it's not worth discussing that idea. Many Christians hold to such theories. I just thought it was worth pointing out that even within Christian circles that is just considered an opinion, not a Biblical truth.

Offline tyranim

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg327085#msg327085
« Reply #138 on: May 04, 2011, 09:55:25 pm »
just remembered something i thought about a while back:
what if god was evil and satan was good, but god (being the more powerful at this time) claims to be good just to get more followers, ultimately gaining more strength? that would mean that all of those satanists who think evil is the way to go are actually doing good a favor, and all of the devout christians are evil :P.
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Offline YoungSot

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg327117#msg327117
« Reply #139 on: May 04, 2011, 10:13:09 pm »
just remembered something i thought about a while back:
what if god was evil and satan was good, but god (being the more powerful at this time) claims to be good just to get more followers, ultimately gaining more strength? that would mean that all of those satanists who think evil is the way to go are actually doing good a favor, and all of the devout christians are evil :P.
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God defines good. Whatever is perfectly good, that is God (and vice versa).
Your argument is similar to asking "what if the ground is actually the sky?"

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg327123#msg327123
« Reply #140 on: May 04, 2011, 10:15:04 pm »
just remembered something i thought about a while back:
what if god was evil and satan was good, but god (being the more powerful at this time) claims to be good just to get more followers, ultimately gaining more strength? that would mean that all of those satanists who think evil is the way to go are actually doing good a favor, and all of the devout christians are evil :P.
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God defines good. Whatever is perfectly good, that is God (and vice versa).
So if god said that premeditated murder was good, it would be?

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg327134#msg327134
« Reply #141 on: May 04, 2011, 10:19:25 pm »
Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?
Although Im not God, perhaps as a person who looks at the bible through his own eyes, and not of any denomination, I can clear a few things up.

Who says its easier to sin than to not sin? Take cuss words as a simple example. I dont cuss. I went through a period in my life where I did, however, I dont anymore. Is it hard for me to not sin? no.

Let me go through each of the 10 commandments.
1)Do not worship any other Gods.-That is very easy for me.
2)Do not make any graven image.-I would have to say this is the hardest for me being an avid video game fanatic. I often find myself spending my time unwisely.
3)Do not misuse the name of God.-Not hard at all.
4)Keep the sabbath day holy.-I consider this one to be relatively easy, although its an easy one to try to avoid due to the fast pace of the world.
5)Honor your father and mother.-My dad cheated on my mom, and then my grandparents (on my dads side) hooked my mom up with my dads brother. She ended up marrying my uncle (on my dads side obviously). Its messed up, but I can honestly say despite that, I honor both my step/father and step/mother.
6)Do not murder.-The bible also describes hatred as murder, however, I am good about not hating as well.
7)Do not commit adultery.-One many struggle with, especially since Jesus says that whoever looks at a woman with lust has commited adultery. I can give you this one as a hard one to do.
8)Do not steal.-An easy one to follow
9)Do not lie.-One many people have trouble with, myself included.
10)Do not covet.-This one is easy for me, however, many people have problems with this.

I'll concede 1 of those as hard for people to follow without any outside influence. That is lieing. You dont have to teach a baby to lie. It will on its own. meanwhile, many of the other things are taught to us today in society as being ok.---
1,2, and 3 are seen on a daily basis on just about any tv channel.
4) is one that many people ignore beacuse of how demanding they feel thier life is and think due to social pressure that its ok sometimes to not honour the sabbath.
5) Once again, moreso nowdays, you see tv shows abuot how teenagers are much smarter than their parents (or at least they think they are)
6)The actual murder part magority of people are good on, however, hatred is still running rampant in todays society.
7)When was the last time you turned on the tv and didnt see a show that has a scene meant to induce lust? Heck, forget tv, when was the last time you went to walmart and didnt see a girl wearing pants so short you could almost see her underwear? And people wonder why this is so hard for everyone (christians and non christians)
8)Stealing, another one I consider easy to follow, however, we also must remember that taking a pencil at school is also stealing.
9)Do not lie. One of the easiest thigns to do and something we are very good at figuring out how to do without any outside help.
10)We live in a nation where we are suppose to want the biggest and brightest things. If our neighbor has it, we want it. (I have a 65" 3d tv, with 4 pair of 3d glasses, you know youre jealous :P)

The point im getting at is that although it seems hard to follow Gods will, and granted, it was never just plain easy to do, it is harder today than it was when the world was first created.

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Offline YoungSot

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg327135#msg327135
« Reply #142 on: May 04, 2011, 10:20:11 pm »
just remembered something i thought about a while back:
what if god was evil and satan was good, but god (being the more powerful at this time) claims to be good just to get more followers, ultimately gaining more strength? that would mean that all of those satanists who think evil is the way to go are actually doing good a favor, and all of the devout christians are evil :P.
monkey wrenches are fun
God defines good. Whatever is perfectly good, that is God (and vice versa).
So if god said that premeditated murder was good, it would be?
Yes. Premeditated murder is wrong because He made the universe in such a way that it is.

Offline tyranim

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Re: Does anyone have a strong argument against God? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19284.msg327138#msg327138
« Reply #143 on: May 04, 2011, 10:21:21 pm »
just remembered something i thought about a while back:
what if god was evil and satan was good, but god (being the more powerful at this time) claims to be good just to get more followers, ultimately gaining more strength? that would mean that all of those satanists who think evil is the way to go are actually doing good a favor, and all of the devout christians are evil :P.
monkey wrenches are fun
lol unit.
God defines good. Whatever is perfectly good, that is God (and vice versa).
Your argument is similar to asking "what if the ground is actually the sky?"
and who's word do you have to go by? someone who talked to god? what if god just said everything he says to do is good and it will earn them in a wonderful place, but lied the entire time? what im saying is religion is pretty much just the telephone game. the "he said she said" thing. i wouldnt believe it the first time i heard it ;P
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