Does anyone have a strong argument against God?

[Neopergoss]

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's suppose I build a robot and I put it on to a grid. I program its exact path into it, and it will be followed exactly. Does the robot have free will simply because the possibility to go a different way exists?

No. But let's say you create a robot who can make its own choices. You watch it for a week, then travel back in time. Now, you have full knowledge of all the choices the robot is going to make, but you are not forcing it to make those choices.

But how do we make choices? We have certain predispositions that are determined at birth. People are not only capable of evil, but in many situations are predisposed towards it.

[BluePriest]

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's suppose I build a robot and I put it on to a grid. I program its exact path into it, and it will be followed exactly. Does the robot have free will simply because the possibility to go a different way exists?

Because of what I know about you QT, I knew upon posting a rebuttal you would choose to post in this topic again.

Notice the wording. I did not say

I knew upon posting a rebuttal I would make you post in this topic again.

[Neopergoss]

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's suppose I build a robot and I put it on to a grid. I program its exact path into it, and it will be followed exactly. Does the robot have free will simply because the possibility to go a different way exists?

Because of what I know about you QT, I knew upon posting a rebuttal you would choose to post in this topic again.

Notice the wording. I did not say

I knew upon posting a rebuttal I would make you post in this topic again.

Semantics

[QuantumT]

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's suppose I build a robot and I put it on to a grid. I program its exact path into it, and it will be followed exactly. Does the robot have free will simply because the possibility to go a different way exists?

No. But let's say you create a robot who can make its own choices. You watch it for a week, then travel back in time. Now, you have full knowledge of all the choices the robot is going to make, but you are not forcing it to make those choices.

But god creates his robot knowing every single choice they're going to make. If it were to ever exercise its supposed free will and make a different choice, it would only be because god made it that way.

God has determined every choice the robot going to make at the moment he makes it. It doesn't really have any free will to speak of, it's just along for the ride.

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's suppose I build a robot and I put it on to a grid. I program its exact path into it, and it will be followed exactly. Does the robot have free will simply because the possibility to go a different way exists?

Because of what I know about you QT, I knew upon posting a rebuttal you would choose to post in this topic again.

Notice the wording. I did not say

I knew upon posting a rebuttal I would make you post in this topic again.

You didn't have any hand in my creation, nor are you omniscient, so the analogy isn't really valid.

[UTAlan]

But god creates his robot knowing every single choice they're going to make. If it were to ever exercise its supposed free will and make a different choice, it would only be because god made it that way.

God has determined every choice the robot going to make at the moment he makes it. It doesn't really have any free will to speak of, it's just along for the ride.

Non-sequitur. Knowing != Determining.

[OldTrees]

I would like to point out that many times the Christian God has been described as 'outside of time'. When I asked for clarification it was described as god exists simultaneously at all times. This means that his consciousness works very much akin to a time machine and thus can know which possibility of a random event will occur. The event remains random (If morality exists so must Free Will) but the result is known to the time traveler.

[QuantumT]

But god creates his robot knowing every single choice they're going to make. If it were to ever exercise its supposed free will and make a different choice, it would only be because god made it that way.

God has determined every choice the robot going to make at the moment he makes it. It doesn't really have any free will to speak of, it's just along for the ride.

Non-sequitur. Knowing != Determining.

Knowing comes from the omniscient part, determining comes from the omnipotent part. With either one separately, it's possible to posit some sort of free will, but the combination removes that completely.

[umgrego2]

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's suppose I build a robot and I put it on to a grid. I program its exact path into it, and it will be followed exactly. Does the robot have free will simply because the possibility to go a different way exists?

No. But let's say you create a robot who can make its own choices. You watch it for a week, then travel back in time. Now, you have full knowledge of all the choices the robot is going to make, but you are not forcing it to make those choices.

If the robot in question truly does have free will, then it won't make the same decisions when you go back in time

[Neopergoss]

Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?

What these discussions always seem to boil down to is that God has his reasons for doing things that may seem backwards and barbaric to us. It's simply beyond human comprehension why things must be the way they are. It might intuitively seem better for us to all be created as angels in Heaven, but God made things that way for a reason and we just have to trust him.

[OldTrees]

Let me try to explain with an analogy. Let's suppose I build a robot and I put it on to a grid. I program its exact path into it, and it will be followed exactly. Does the robot have free will simply because the possibility to go a different way exists?

No. But let's say you create a robot who can make its own choices. You watch it for a week, then travel back in time. Now, you have full knowledge of all the choices the robot is going to make, but you are not forcing it to make those choices.

If the robot in question truly does have free will, then it won't make the same decisions when you go back in time

It will if it is the same time line.

[QuantumT]

Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?

That's actually a very good question. If god is omniscient, then he knows that something is hellbound when he creates it, and he does it anyway. He is therefore creating something that is going to eternally suffer on purpose. That doesn't sound like very benevolent to me, in fact it sounds like the epitome of sadism.

What these discussions always seem to boil down to is that God has his reasons for doing things that may seem backwards and barbaric to us. It's simply beyond human comprehension why things must be the way they are. It might intuitively seem better for us to all be created as angels in Heaven, but God made things that way for a reason and we just have to trust him.

Why? There's no evidence that he has my well being in mind.

[OldTrees]

Even if humans have free will (and they don't, but that's a whole other story), it's very easy for us to be evil. That is an important point. We could've been designed so that it was a lot easier for us to make the right choices. We could've been smarter and less selfish as a species. Why would a creator choose to make us this way? The common answer is that it's some kind of test, but it seems to me quite twisted. We have to pass a test to be angels in Heaven and some of us will fail and go to Hell. Why didn't God just make a bunch of angels and leave out the testing and Hell?

Because Angels cannot glorify God. It is the test that give mortals the ability to glorify God.