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Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg114480#msg114480
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2010, 07:01:38 pm »
I'm saying that it is difficult for me to share with anybody what my faith is, period. Pretty much both points A and B, SeddyRocky. Of course, it doesn't help that there is a guy who stands on the curb across the street from where I work and does a big "fire & brimstone" sermon just about every day... I'm the only Christian in my family, and every time I have tried to say anything about my faith, I get the "don't preach to me" response. It's a passive aggressive way to keep my mouth shut, and I get tired of it. It's okay to be a "casual" Christian in America, but when you try to put feet to your faith, everybody will go out of their way to crush those efforts.

Because personally, I believe that just as people have a right to express their religion, the style of shoving it down peoples throats/"you should think like me!!!" is not really acceptable. This goes for atheist/non-religions too.

Edit: Not saying you are, I'm just stating my opinion on it.
This argument has always sort of puzzled me. If someone people's beliefs say that they should try to spread those beliefs then how is it possible to say trying to spread one's beliefs is not acceptable without infringing upon their right to express their religion? Could someone try to explain this to me?
Haha, I know, I don't understand it either. If I am talking to someone about Jesus, I am not infringing on their religious rights. In fact, I am exercising my religious freedom in sharing my faith with that person. The problem is exacerbated when put into larger perspective, because double standards start to appear in a systemized form of government. For example, it is fine for a public school to educate its students on the teachings of Islam or other world religions (because it's educational and somehow not morally guided...?), but one can get fired for teaching about Christian doctrine.

Offline ratcharmerTopic starter

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg114528#msg114528
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2010, 07:43:45 pm »
That was a fast pair of responses.

The Bible does contain the line "go make disciples of all nations" and several other similar lines. Many Christians (denominations, or just individuals) interpret this to mean they should convert others. I can't speak for other religions since I lack expertise on them, and frankly I find it a little offensive when others interpret my beliefs for me, so I'll try to avoid interpreting theirs for them.

Personally I would place the line between expressing one's own beliefs and repressing someone else's at the point where you're no longer just using words. That is to say, if there were a legal penalty for not being Christian or if you were threatened physically, those or conditions similar to them I would find to be wrong. But if all they're doing is talking/writing etc. then I think free speech should support them.

Even if they're offensive about it, they still have a right to say it. However this does not mean you have to like it.

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg114568#msg114568
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2010, 08:55:37 pm »
Talking about your faith is not the same thing as seeing people of other beliefs as lesser people that should convert or vanish. Personally I dislike anyone pushing their faith on others, dictated by their religion expressibly or by their own intent.

Share faith = beautiful, free-speech-ing thing.

Force, threaten, etc (use of terrorism techniques or power abuse) to convert = baaad, baaad. (This includes for example the missionary styling of showing up and offering food/other kinds of aid, only if the people convert to a specific religion. While not legally forcing them, it is choosing between a religion and starvation and not everyone feels like being a martyr. )

This is of course my personal opinion and in no way represent any legal system, or such.

Question: As a Christian, if you meet someone clearly not interested in your religion (or even an anti-religious atheist), do you share your faith with him/her?

Trying to tie back to the topic, this can go both ways:

Push the [insert atheist or other non-Christian] in this case can make him/her feel persecuted/not allowed to have own beliefs.

OR

Make the Christian feel persecuted for not feeling like he/she can freely exercise his/hers beliefs without sharing his/her faith.

The case leans in the Christians favor methinks, but both are still viable options.

Offline BluePriest

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg114576#msg114576
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2010, 09:04:05 pm »
@Seddy

imo, i think the Christian should say something, but should always be careful on how he says it. Never make the person feel uncomfortable, also, sometimes just being a good example is all it takes. Sometimes (maybe about 5% of the time) the best way to show your care for someone is to be very passive about it. My old youth pastor had a friend that didnt ever want to hear anything about it, and so all she would do is stick with her being a friend, being there for her, and continue her regular routine, and that actually in the long run open up the door for her to talk to the friend about it.

As i said, I dont think thats generally the best approach, however, there are certain situations where it is. I definitly dont think that pushing your religion and persecuting him is a good idea (as I never think it is), but maybe his anti-religious or atheistic attitude is due to a misunderstanding, so I think thats worth finding out, so that you can show him where the misunderstanding is, without trying to actively convert him.
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Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg114594#msg114594
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2010, 09:39:44 pm »
Question: As a Christian, if you meet someone clearly not interested in your religion (or even an anti-religious atheist), do you share your faith with him/her?
I say absolutely not, because the Bible explicitly states in Matthew 7:6, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." What this means to the believer is that sharing the Gospel with someone who will not accept it is not only a waste of time, but it could actually be harmful to any sort of witnessing potential to that person. So if I know that the guy I'm talking to doesn't want to hear about Jesus, I won't force anything on him, but will pray for him in private.

Offline ratcharmerTopic starter

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg114609#msg114609
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2010, 10:00:24 pm »
Generally I try to open conversations about religion by asking the other person if they feel comfortable talking about it. Seems simplest.

Offline Xinef

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg114678#msg114678
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2010, 12:26:29 am »
As far as I know from a Christians point of view, conversion is considered a miracle and thus only God can truly convert a person (and because God respects our free will, he does it only if the person wants to be converted).
On the other hand, helping others to reach heaven is considered a good deed, so even if it's not obligatory, a Christian should try to help others establish/reestablish their connection with God.

And from what I've been taught, the best you can do to achieve that is try to love everyone (even satanists!), pray for them and give example with your own life. A logical conclusion is that you should 'preach' only if the person wants it, or in rare situations when he does not, but you think it's really for his good (similar to a situation when you do something against a friends will, or a parent does something against his child will to save them from harm).

Also, as far as I know, crusades and inquisition (as well as similar situations in other religions like Al Kaida) were in fact lead by nonbelievers as they are so contradictory to the teachings of their religion, that anyone who does indeed love God would clearly see the problem. They simply used religion as a mean of manipulation to achieve their goals. There were even cases in Middle Ages when a Pope was a non believer who achieved his rank through noble birth, wealth and connections, rather than faith.
Nowadays I guess most of the priests are true believers, although still there are exceptions, but at least it's much less common among bishops and higher ranks.

Heh... If I were to say which event was the worst in Christianity's history, I'd say it was the "Edict of Thessalonica" that made Christianity the state religion of Roman Empire and thus obligatory. Not only it was wrong as it forced people to convert (which obviously does not work and people would join Christianity only superficially, but keep to their believes secretly), but also it was extremely harmful to the Church itself as it was the moment when non believers started to call themselves Christians and thus their actions were considered representative of Christians even though they were not.

And just to make it clear, I'm not saying that Christians are any better than non believers. I simply think that a person who does believe in 'God who is love' can see that killing non believers (or persecuting them in any way) is bad, while someone who does not believe in God might not necessarily see it so (although he can). Of course, whether the Christian does not kill because he knows it's bad, or whether he does commit to sin, is another matter.
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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg123684#msg123684
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2010, 03:59:02 am »
Persecution is an interesting word; I find it can cover all manner of mischief.

There's overt persecution (imprisonment, torture, execution, forced conversion etc.), and then covert, or subversive, persecution. This may be a mild bias against the believer within society, mockery, condescension etc.

Many of us here - by here I mean playing Elements - are from developed nations such as the US, Europe, Australia. Due to our stringently democratic societies, we're not likely to face the overt persecution you'll encounter elsewhere. But we may well have experienced subversive persecution, especially in the form of double-standards in our society.

I know I have.

Offline Daytripper

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg124902#msg124902
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2010, 07:04:41 pm »
Hi.

I'm an agnotic atheist from the Netherlands. If you wonder why that is, it's because people are so difficult. So I don't know there is no God, but I don't believe it either.

I live close to the Dutch bible belt. So, people have looked at me funny sometimes. I remember this one girl and I swear her eyes were going to fell from their sockets when we talked about it. As a rule, I just do not tell old people I'm agnostic atheist.

Otherwise I'm not really bothered much. I have had a Jehova at my door at that was really funny. He tried to tell me evolution didn't exist and I just kept coming with argumentations and refutations until he gave up.
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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg124963#msg124963
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2010, 07:50:53 pm »
Quote
I'm an agnotic atheist from the Netherlands. If you wonder why that is, it's because people are so difficult. So I don't know there is no God, but I don't believe it either.
That's the textbook definition of an agnostic.  No agnostic I've met has believed in any deity - agnosticism is defined by honesty regarding one's own lack of sufficient knowledge to make the call.

Re the topic at hand, I would say the minimum that could be called persecution would be discrimination that affects your lifestyle.  If you get turned down for a job when someone finds out you're Muslim, that would be persecution.  If you get called stupid for believing in Judaism, I'd say that's an insult, but persecution is a loaded word and I wouldn't use it.  People get insulted all the time for all sorts of things, it's the human condition and I for one have spent time developing emotional defense techniques so it doesn't drag me down.

Offline Daytripper

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg125061#msg125061
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2010, 09:36:08 pm »
Hmmm,

To get back to that, not really. An agnostic has to go to as many churches as possible. One could be the right one. And I also call Christians agnostic theists now... How can they know there IS a God?

In most of the Netherlands atheists or homosexuals can not be denied jobs by law but in the bible belt they can give you a hard time. That is in the lower north or just a tad above the centre. So people can always make up some excuse not to hire you, or you really have to watch what you say to your co workers.
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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg125167#msg125167
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2010, 11:45:32 pm »
May I be so bold as to attempt a simplistic definition of the difference between an agnostic and atheist?

An atheist says, “I believe there is no god.”

A theist says, “I believe there is a god.”

An agnostic says, “I’m not sure if there is a god. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. I don’t know yet.”

The definition Daytripper seems to be suggesting is that of a proactive agnostic, or “seeker”, as I have heard them colloquially named. The alternative is the apathetic agnostic; they don’t know the answer to the meaning of life and they can’t be bothered to find out.

The apathetic agnostic is by far the most common species found in Australia, considering how close it is to our nation creed:

“Australia - We’re interested in apathy.”

 

blarg: