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Offline Boingo

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg112563#msg112563
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2010, 01:30:51 am »
only seems fair as for centuries the nonbelievers were prosecuted by believers and of course tortured/killed
Not to persecute you on your beliefs, but to think of "fairness" as persecuting some people today because some people were tortured/killed in the past is just abusing what "fair" means.

Do you think this guy is persecuted for his beliefs (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/illinois-professor-fired-for-giving-catholic-teaching-on-homosexuality/) (or for teaching someone else's beliefs?)
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Offline tyranim

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg112576#msg112576
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2010, 01:43:50 am »
by your logic iampostal, black people have the right to enslave and torture white people for the next couple hundred years?
my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard and they're like "its better than yours" damn right, its better than yours! i can teach you but i'd have to charge!

Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg112725#msg112725
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2010, 07:58:55 am »
Quote
Do you think this guy is persecuted for his beliefs (or for teaching someone else's beliefs?)
Depends if he represented those beliefs as being endorsed by the college.  And I wouldn't go so far as to call it "hate speech," since he only seems to have covered the Catholic Church's belief about certain actions, not people.

Oy.  If only we could clearly define what constitutes such things as hate speech, intolerance, persecution, etc.  People throw these loaded words around so freely without really understanding them...

Offline ratcharmerTopic starter

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg112903#msg112903
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2010, 04:13:22 pm »
sometimes i do feel like im looked down on by both theist and atheists. by the theists because of this little quote that multiple theists have said to me "isnt it depressing believing that nothing happens after death?" i try to reply that i DONT believe that, but they dont listen. i get this from multiple athiests "how could you believe in something that ridiculous? seriously, its just stupid to believe there is a kingdom in the sky that people go to when they die" i then try to explain that i DONT believe that. its almost as if they both think im the other. which is REALLY annoying.
Yeah, this is sort of similar to what I meant when I said I occasionally encounter people who try to tell me what I believe. I've never understood this mentality.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@iampostal: you've popped into several posts in the religion section now, and entered every one of them in what I could only characterize as the most hostile way possible.

If you want to be taken seriously please try to be civil. It can only help your arguments and you're more likely to get a civil response in return. You will also note that in regards to this thread "beliefs" also includes agnostics and atheists. If you read through the rest of the posts you'll note there are several involved in this discussion.

In conclusion, if you want to be taken seriously, you'll find a little civility goes a long way, if you're trying to be a troll, please do it somewhere else.


SeddyRocky

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg112967#msg112967
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2010, 06:18:25 pm »
only seems fair as for centuries the nonbelievers were prosecuted by believers and of course tortured/killed
Not to persecute you on your beliefs, but to think of "fairness" as persecuting some people today because some people were tortured/killed in the past is just abusing what "fair" means.

Do you think this guy is persecuted for his beliefs (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/illinois-professor-fired-for-giving-catholic-teaching-on-homosexuality/) (or for teaching someone else's beliefs?)
While I disagree with his beliefs, I do not see how that was appropriate action by the university. If asked to teach about catholicism, I would also tell my students that according to the catholic church, homosexuality is against moral laws (as this is the catholic view and I'd otherwise be lying to them). The question at hand is of course if the professor expressed that Catholics saw homosexuality (including himself passively) as morally wrong, or that, while teaching Catholicism, homosexuality was morally wrong. Difference being neutrality (teach, don't preach), which I believe is in place in order for students to learn and form their own opinions and not be indoctrinated one way or the other.

The article is not fully clear on that subject, though it seems to want to be neutral and in the prof. favor, but it is a Catholic news site and thus could be more biased than unaffiliated media.

Offline Boingo

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg113340#msg113340
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2010, 04:48:39 am »
While I disagree with his beliefs, I do not see how that was appropriate action by the university. If asked to teach about catholicism, I would also tell my students that according to the catholic church, homosexuality is against moral laws (as this is the catholic view and I'd otherwise be lying to them). The question at hand is of course if the professor expressed that Catholics saw homosexuality (including himself passively) as morally wrong, or that, while teaching Catholicism, homosexuality was morally wrong. Difference being neutrality (teach, don't preach), which I believe is in place in order for students to learn and form their own opinions and not be indoctrinated one way or the other.

The article is not fully clear on that subject, though it seems to want to be neutral and in the prof. favor, but it is a Catholic news site and thus could be more biased than unaffiliated media.
I'm pretty sure from reading related articles from other (non-Catholic) sources (http://www.news-gazette.com/news/university-illinois/2010-07-09/instructor-catholicism-ui-claims-loss-job-violates-academic-free) this guy was fired for representing the Catholic viewpoint in class-related materials for a class on Catholicism.  The "hate speech" charge is garbage and was presented in the most cowardly way (an email from a guy not even taking the class?)

The "teach don't preach" view of university instruction is an interesting one but not one I share for the most part.  I think students at a university ought to be challenged to defend their positions and to examine viewpoints not just passively but actively.  After all, the learning they are supposed to be doing should have at least some real-world significance and the real world of opinion and discourse is anything but passive.  Moreover, should someone really be fired for stating one's beliefs?  What if the professor tried to get the the student expelled for anti-Catholic rhetoric?  This hate speech thing is a tricky business.
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KyuubisSlave

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg113368#msg113368
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2010, 06:01:57 am »
idk, I feel like laws dont do what they are suppose to, and things that were meant to protect religion here in the US are more often doing just the opposite. Did anyone know that there is nowhere in the constitution that it says separation of church and state?

It was strange. In my school, I knew people who were told they cant pray and told that they cant where necklaces with a cross on it. I both times wish that was me being told that, cause I dont take crap from people. I really dont feel like that happens often, but it sholdnt happen period. (and btw, I think teachers in my school were anti-religion period. I supported a pagen friend of mine who was told she couldnt wear her pentagram. I just dont like people trying to cover peoples beliefs period).'

Now where I work, I think its funny because as soon as people find out I dont cuss, they feel embarrassed and try not to cuss around me. I watch TV, I went to school. I heard cuss words, if it didnt bother me then, it ont now. But even a few months after they found that out, they would look at me like "oops, sorry" when they cussed and forgot I didnt. Thats one of those things that is nice to see that people still have concern for your morals.
You are quite correct in your statement that "separation of church and state" is not written in the constitution; however it is implied in the first amendment and has been assumed sense the founding fathers created the constitution.

Quote from: Thomas Jefferson
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
I for one completely and wholeheartedly agree with the concept ;however, I do not agree with how your school stops people from wearing things that represent their religions. That would be akin to my former school forcing me to say under god during the pledge. No one has the right to make you do such things and your school is very wrong in doing so.

My former school was quite the opposite of yours in that it mixed religion way to closely to school, some of my teachers even going so far as to start preaching their ideals to the class..... one of them being a math teacher WTH does God have to do with imaginary numbers?

Edit: as for my belief- I don't particularly believe in any religion; however I most definitely am not ruling out the possibility of a god as god can not be proven nor can god be disproved (same goes with just about any other belief)  unfortunately because of me believing this a lot of religious people think I'm on the cusp of deciding a religion and they often attempt to convert me ._. I must say it gets very annoying

SeddyRocky

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg113529#msg113529
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2010, 03:49:50 pm »
While I disagree with his beliefs, I do not see how that was appropriate action by the university. If asked to teach about catholicism, I would also tell my students that according to the catholic church, homosexuality is against moral laws (as this is the catholic view and I'd otherwise be lying to them). The question at hand is of course if the professor expressed that Catholics saw homosexuality (including himself passively) as morally wrong, or that, while teaching Catholicism, homosexuality was morally wrong. Difference being neutrality (teach, don't preach), which I believe is in place in order for students to learn and form their own opinions and not be indoctrinated one way or the other.

The article is not fully clear on that subject, though it seems to want to be neutral and in the prof. favor, but it is a Catholic news site and thus could be more biased than unaffiliated media.
I'm pretty sure from reading related articles from other (non-Catholic) sources (http://www.news-gazette.com/news/university-illinois/2010-07-09/instructor-catholicism-ui-claims-loss-job-violates-academic-free) this guy was fired for representing the Catholic viewpoint in class-related materials for a class on Catholicism.  The "hate speech" charge is garbage and was presented in the most cowardly way (an email from a guy not even taking the class?)

The "teach don't preach" view of university instruction is an interesting one but not one I share for the most part.  I think students at a university ought to be challenged to defend their positions and to examine viewpoints not just passively but actively.  After all, the learning they are supposed to be doing should have at least some real-world significance and the real world of opinion and discourse is anything but passive.  Moreover, should someone really be fired for stating one's beliefs?  What if the professor tried to get the the student expelled for anti-Catholic rhetoric?  This hate speech thing is a tricky business.
I really hope that we can have a non-heated discussion. It is obviously not hate speech, as it seems it was meant to create a discussion in the class. While I can see that condemning someone (guessing the friend is not of the catholic view that homosexuality is morally wrong) as being morally wrong can be considered hateful, but it is simply a representation of the Catholic faith (whether agreeable or not). Personally, I believe that while a teacher can spark a discussion, he/she should NOT encourage one side or the other (unless it is actual hate speech such as racist or similar remarks, but do note that I do not think that this teacher was guilty of hate speech). Doing so would be an authoritarian way of inhibiting free speech, of forcing an opinion on students. If an authority figure holds one stance, while students may argue for or against it, the students siding with the teachers will probably have an easier time.

In Sweden, not counting higher levels of education as university and college, teachers may not preach a specific view of religion or politics (with the exception of promoting democracy). This system is in order to prevent students from copying teachers opinions instead of forming their own. In university, however, I think that students should be grown enough to know their own opinions and not be influenced beyond controllable measures.

Going on a anti-catholic rampage would be fairly odd, considering that the subjects he's teaching. But promoting your own faith, whether it would be pro and anti catholicism in this case, I believe should not be encouraged in any public education element. If you choose a private Christian university, then it is another thing. Separation of church and state, teaching should be religiously neutral, not pro and not anti.




Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg113660#msg113660
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2010, 06:41:56 pm »
Quote
Separation of church and state, teaching should be religiously neutral, not pro and not anti.
Which is odd, since colleges are private institutions, even the ones partially funded by the government.  Exception: military schools.

SeddyRocky

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg113700#msg113700
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2010, 07:11:14 pm »
Huh, I have to admit I did not know that. Most universities in Sweden are completely funded by gov so I assumed that the public ones in the US would be similar.

Offline ratcharmerTopic starter

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg113758#msg113758
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2010, 07:55:41 pm »
While public colleges in the US do receive most of their funding through private sources they're still officially government institutions. Whether or not they should be is up for debate, but from the government's viewpoint they are covered under separation of church and state.

After reading the article (assuming the source is accurate) the thing that really bothered me about this whole affair is that the college first approached Dr. Howell and asked him to come teach about Catholic beliefs, and then later fired him for teaching those same beliefs.

I believe an institution shouldn't have to represent beliefs they don't want to (although I also believe it's fair if their reputation suffers as a result) but if the University of Illinois didn't want someone teaching this viewpoint then they should not have hired someone to teach a class on it.

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Re: Do you feel persecuted because of your beliefs? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9050.msg113767#msg113767
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2010, 08:06:30 pm »
but from the government's viewpoint they are covered under separation of church and state.

I think its worth noting again that there is nowhere in the constitution that says Seperation of Church and State, and the citation it is taken from is often times  "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" which if anything is made more for the freedom of religion than the prohibition of it.
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