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Offline ElementalDearWatson

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1026097#msg1026097
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 02:33:13 pm »
Well, I think that first off, you'd have to define which version of the 10 Commandments you're talking about.  The Bible lists 2 different versions, and there are 3 different schools of theological thought as to how each of these are numbered, and which of these are counted as one of the 10.

Secondly, I think perhaps you should explain why you believe that God would not tell people that certain things are morally wrong.  Outside of the 10 commandments there are any number of examples in the Bible of God dictating what is or is not moral.

Offline russianspy1234

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1026112#msg1026112
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2012, 04:08:33 pm »
The conclusion I've come to, after years of discussion, is that the Torah (I am Jewish, and thus am only referring to the old testament here) is not a book of morals, it is a book of laws.  Much like with our laws today, some of them coincide really well with morality, other do not.  Some laws allow things that are immoral like working on the Sabbath, and some things that are immoral are allowed by the Torah, like owning slaves.  Judaism is pretty mutable, and allows for modern day sensibilities to interpret various laws, and to not follow those that would be truly detrimental.  There are 613 laws, given thousands of years ago, some of them cannot apply anymore, and some should not.

Back to your initial post though.  Is killing and murdering wrong because GOD said so, or did GOD say so because they are wrong, passing down a morality that already existed?  You gotta ask that question first.  Of course, with the Garden of Eden story, there is a pretty clear example of GOD giving a law essentially as a test of our love, so clearly both types (moral and, as you say, revealing a problem of the heart) of commandments exist.  The problem that is revealed however, is just a lack of love of GOD.  How important that is is up to personal interpretation, but clearly people are capable of being moral without following all 613 commandment laid out by GOD, or even all of just the 10 famous ones.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1027024#msg1027024
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2012, 07:33:29 am »
I see your point in the Old Testament, but how do you respond to the New Testament. Love God with all you got? Why not force us? If it's for us to freely love God (sincere), why 'force' us back in the OT? I understand the situations were different at the time, but why not make it so freely choosing to love God was the path as he uses in the NT from the beginning?
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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1027357#msg1027357
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 04:15:46 pm »
Again, Here is the focus for debate: God gave commandments not because they are wrong, but rather they reveal a heart problem when committed is the topic of discussion. This can be biblical or using today's examples.
I think that you are confusing two different periods. The earlier period emphasized laws and obedient actions, not feelings and beliefs. The later period emphasized feelings (love, compassion) and belief (e.g., that Jesus is savior) as a necessary complement to laws and obedient actions. The God of the earlier period was a superhuman version of an earthly king, and as such did king-like things such as give laws, punish criminals, make war, etc. The God of the later period is concerned with human souls and the afterlife - which makes sense, given that Israel had been subjugated and it would be hard to respect Yahweh as a successful king by earthly criteria.

Offline russianspy1234

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1027380#msg1027380
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 06:02:04 pm »
I see your point in the Old Testament, but how do you respond to the New Testament. Love God with all you got? Why not force us? If it's for us to freely love God (sincere), why 'force' us back in the OT? I understand the situations were different at the time, but why not make it so freely choosing to love God was the path as he uses in the NT from the beginning?

Because it's not real love if it's forced?  I'm Jewish, so I think you can guess my answer to why the NT path wasn't used from the beginning.
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Offline memimemi

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1039219#msg1039219
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2013, 10:24:58 am »
I'm not Christian, myself, but this is an intriguing question.

As russianspy1234 has done, I'd like to try to add a little more historical perspective: at the time of the 10 (or, as pointed out, 613) Commandments, the monotheistic G-D wasn't the only game in town.  Hence, commandments 1+2 deal with the consolidation of the 12 tribes under one common theological banner.  In a very Jewish way, the law is set down simply, but with plenty of space for millions of words of commentary. 

The environment was one of chaos; anarchy; limitless (often genocidal) warfare between warlord monarchs; all informed by an unwanted form of tribal pluralism.  Heck, there weren't even any 'Jews' at the time: the 12 tribes of Israel weren't even yet united internally, never mind taken together.

In such an environment, it seems sensible to lay down the law, and enforce it by might.  The legalistic approach is shown by what happened directly after Moses came down from Sinai.  Spoiler: it's not pretty.

Fast-forward a few centuries.

At the presumed time of Christ, Israel was a thing.  One could reasonably identify as 'Jewish, from Canaan,' as opposed to 'Canaanite, allied to other tribes.'  Roman occupation had managed, for better or for worse, to bring the stability and order to the region through a version of legalism that was somewhat different from the native one; the crisis for Jewish pride was that it worked, in ways that Hebraic laws didn't.

What does a fiercely tribal, immensely loyal, powerfully self-determined society do, when faced with evidence that a conquerer is doing a more effective job of running things, despite being of an inferior, heathen breed?

Revolt?  The Romans were quite effective at putting down revolts.  Despite greater social organization than in OT times, Jews were still no match for the highly cohesive legions.  Rationalize the situation?  Not an option, when the populace is illiterate, disorganized, and largely apolitical.  It would be a monumental task to convince one's neighbours that somehow their subjugation was anything other than the failure of their almighty GD to protect them.

Luckily, there is another option: redefine what it means to be Jewish.  'Fulfill' the law, rather than obey it.  GD cannot be the state; the state has failed, and GD doesn't fail.  GD cannot be the Lawgiver anymore: Roman law had trumped Jewish law, and GD cannot be trumped.  However, those issues are neatly and cleverly sidestepped, if one redefines the experience of GD as being more important than the rules.  If we replace GD the triumphant King with GD the stern but loving Father, there is room to explain the socioeconomic situation.  Commandments 1+2 become a stronger version of commandment 5 (or 4, depending on the particular religious interpretation) - 'honour thy mother and father, and especially THY FATHER,' if you will.

From this perspective, one can more easily understand the shift in method of adherence to law.  The focus on the concept of an afterlife is a good example; in OT times, an afterlife just doesn't make sense.  GD the conquering King was present on the battlefield; the smell of blood and glory was in His nose, in a very real, temporal sense.  There was no time for metaphor and abstraction; GD was right there, sticking pointy bits of metal into other gods, even as a warrior representing him was sticking similar metal bits into representatives of other gods.  GD could, and did, win - right here, right now, in a very tangible way.  The OT view, unfortunately, doesn't work without the blood and glory of battle. 

Enter 'heaven,' 'the Kingdom,' and other metaphorical abstractions, to save the day.  You can't prove the strength of your lord by losing miserably on the battlefield: the trumpet of Gabriel only smashes down the walls of societies weaker than your own.  But the Romans can't take away your love for an abstract representation of GD.  They may ruin you, financially, judiciously, even physically - but they can't strip away your sure knowledge that your Father awaits you, and is with you always.

So, assuming that a)there is a monotheistic, Abrahamic GD; b)the Commandments are an accurate representation of His word; and c)that Word remained (and remains) valid, despite changing societal circumstances, and evolving concepts of religion (as divorced, slightly, from nationalism);

then

Human relations to GD have to change.  When all you're left with to give to your Father is love, loyalty, and devotion, those become the natural sacrifices to offer - in place of blood, smoke, and glory.  When you are unable to free yourself from the perceived yoke of oppression, you find a way to be a good slave, as true to yourself and your heritage as you can manage.  So, without the currency of livestock surplus, military might, and literal/theological superiority to offer GD, you offer what you have.  After all, obeying GD, and offering the best part of what you have to Him, is a defining characteristic of what you are, as a Jew, and Israelite, and as a human being.

tl;dr: there's no real difference between obeying the law because it's law, and obeying the law as a natural expression of devotion, loyalty, and love.  As a toddler, we listen to dad when he tells us we can't have sour keys for supper - because he's DAD, and those are the RULES.  As we grow, and are introduced to ideas and outlooks outside of the family unit we know, we still listen to DAD - not because those are the RULES, but rather because we respect and value the wisdom and knowledge DAD has, that we don't.  But we still can't have sour keys for supper, either way.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 10:27:54 am by memimemi »
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1041356#msg1041356
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 07:29:43 am »
The conclusion I've come to, after years of discussion, is that the Torah (I am Jewish, and thus am only referring to the old testament here) is not a book of morals, it is a book of laws.  Much like with our laws today, some of them coincide really well with morality, other do not.  Some laws allow things that are immoral like working on the Sabbath, and some things that are immoral are allowed by the Torah, like owning slaves.  Judaism is pretty mutable, and allows for modern day sensibilities to interpret various laws, and to not follow those that would be truly detrimental.  There are 613 laws, given thousands of years ago, some of them cannot apply anymore, and some should not.

Back to your initial post though.  Is killing and murdering wrong because GOD said so, or did GOD say so because they are wrong, passing down a morality that already existed?  You gotta ask that question first.  Of course, with the Garden of Eden story, there is a pretty clear example of GOD giving a law essentially as a test of our love, so clearly both types (moral and, as you say, revealing a problem of the heart) of commandments exist.  The problem that is revealed however, is just a lack of love of GOD.  How important that is is up to personal interpretation, but clearly people are capable of being moral without following all 613 commandment laid out by GOD, or even all of just the 10 famous ones.

Sorry for this very late reply...this makes much more sense now, thank you.
Thank you as well memimemi for you post as well, but as far as modern rules (dad example), shouldn't parent's give somewhat of a reason? Are not there a lot of repercussions for not knowing reasons, or something valid reason even at a young age, even if it's  bland at first? I don't know...it's just my view kids need more than just because since that in itself is a fallacy. 'Ad Aculum' is what I think that is called.
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Offline russianspy1234

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1041447#msg1041447
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 02:56:59 pm »
The conclusion I've come to, after years of discussion, is that the Torah (I am Jewish, and thus am only referring to the old testament here) is not a book of morals, it is a book of laws.  Much like with our laws today, some of them coincide really well with morality, other do not.  Some laws allow things that are immoral like working on the Sabbath, and some things that are immoral are allowed by the Torah, like owning slaves.  Judaism is pretty mutable, and allows for modern day sensibilities to interpret various laws, and to not follow those that would be truly detrimental.  There are 613 laws, given thousands of years ago, some of them cannot apply anymore, and some should not.

Back to your initial post though.  Is killing and murdering wrong because GOD said so, or did GOD say so because they are wrong, passing down a morality that already existed?  You gotta ask that question first.  Of course, with the Garden of Eden story, there is a pretty clear example of GOD giving a law essentially as a test of our love, so clearly both types (moral and, as you say, revealing a problem of the heart) of commandments exist.  The problem that is revealed however, is just a lack of love of GOD.  How important that is is up to personal interpretation, but clearly people are capable of being moral without following all 613 commandment laid out by GOD, or even all of just the 10 famous ones.

Sorry for this very late reply...this makes much more sense now, thank you.
Thank you as well memimemi for you post as well, but as far as modern rules (dad example), shouldn't parent's give somewhat of a reason? Are not there a lot of repercussions for not knowing reasons, or something valid reason even at a young age, even if it's  bland at first? I don't know...it's just my view kids need more than just because since that in itself is a fallacy. 'Ad Aculum' is what I think that is called.

There's this joke I know:  A little kid walks up to his mom when she is cooking, and notices the red coil on the electric stove and asks
"mommy what's that?" 
She says "don't touch that, that's hot",
"what's "hot"?"
"just don't touch it."
And he walks away.
The same kid walks up to his dad when he is cooking, and notices the red coil on the electric stove and asks
"daddy what's that?" 
he says "don't touch that, that's hot",
"what's "hot"?"
"touch it and find out"

Not entirely relevant, but eh.

The reasons aren't always relevant, sometimes a reason would be counterproductive to the point (such as the don't eat the apple example), sometimes they are beyond the scope of the more primitive minds of those days (such as not eating pig) and other times, reasons are in fact given.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1042274#msg1042274
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 09:22:40 am »
So, are you in agreement that some situations need purposeful fault? I mean, you don't want to become a drug attic to learn the problems it creates, but the small instant pain of touching a fire stove is sometimes better than saying 'don't touch it.'

Think about people getting shots at the doctor's office. Small dose of pain helps your body prepare when the real deal comes.
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Offline russianspy1234

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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1042335#msg1042335
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 03:30:46 pm »
So, are you in agreement that some situations need purposeful fault? I mean, you don't want to become a drug attic to learn the problems it creates, but the small instant pain of touching a fire stove is sometimes better than saying 'don't touch it.'

Think about people getting shots at the doctor's office. Small dose of pain helps your body prepare when the real deal comes.
did i say which parent i agreed with?  the small instant pain would probably leave a pretty large scar on a childs hand. a shot at the doctors office gives you medication that prevents future pain, it is not just pain that teaches you a lesson to avoid future shots (though that is the lesson some people take)
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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1042715#msg1042715
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2013, 05:58:07 am »
As I understand it, the commandments are two things, general good ideas like honor your father and mother (in most situations, they might be total a**holes) and things that are in direct counter to God's nature, like lying and murder, and that's how they are judged as right and wrong.
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Re: Commandments/Loving God problem https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45369.msg1042723#msg1042723
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 06:30:07 am »
northcity4, I believe that your explanation of the question makes things more complicated than necessary.  Your original question, before you explained it, was:

God gave the 10 commandments, but is it wrong because God said so?
The answer is yes.

G-d issued The Ten Commandments and, later, 603 additional laws.  Any person who claims to follow G-d must obey G-d's laws.  Other religions do not have these same laws.  Therefore, adherents of those religions must obey whatever laws, if any, those religions set.

Wicca, for example, has only one governing law, called the Wiccan Rede: "If it harm none, do as you will."  You could summarize The Ten into the Rede, if you wanted, because ultimately, each of The Ten is about some kind of harm, either to G-d, to another person, or to a relationship.  The Rede, on the other hand, allows for more liberty.
Example:  Commandment Seven orders peeps not to commit adultery.  Reason: Doing so harms the marriage relationship.  Suppose, though, that a couple get married and agree between themselves that sex with other people is allowed.  In that case, outside sex does not harm the marriage.  In a Jewish or Christian marriage, the lack of harm is irrelevant; G-d said it's wrong, so it's wrong.  In a Wiccan marriage, all is well.

I can think of no country or other government that a has a law against telling lies (except in court, on documents, or in other legal capacities).  If you want to tell your neighbor that his beautiful lawn is ugly just because you don't like him, no one is going to punish you for that.  However, Commandment Nine says, "Don't lie".  We can debate the morality of lying all day, but that's not the point.  The point is that if you follow G-d, there's an established consequence for lying.  Otherwise, there isn't, unless the religion of the individual telling the lie establishes such a consequence.

So again, if you believe in the Bible (Old and/or New Covenants), breaking the laws established in the Bible is wrong--FOR YOU--because, and only because, G-d said so.  That's the answer to your question.
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