Commandments/Loving God problem

[northcity4]

Please understand there is some philosophy involved in this topic, but I feel it meant more in religion which is why I posted in the Religion threads.

This is for Judaism and Christianity.

God gave the 10 commandments, but is it wrong because God said so?

Here is my take:

1)God says don't steal, don't cheat, don't murder, don't do bad things basically.
2)Morality: a great definition for morality is the behavior change associated with good/bad things.
Example: If you don't feel like it is wrong to murder people, how can you say what that person is doing is wrong?
3)Sin: doing which is wrong and knowing (hence the example by #2)

Tying in these points, why did God tell us what is bad or don't do certain things?

Here is the focus for debate: God gave commandments not because they are wrong, but rather they reveal a heart problem when committed. When you claim to be a strong christian and still look at porn, is this because it's your 'weakness' or Satan is tempting you or is it a revelation about how much you care about God?

Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver-->is this because Satan got to him or because he didn't love Jesus enough? Does say he called Jesus a Rabbi while the others called him lord. Others calling him lord=we love you this much. Calling him a teacher=I love you this much.

(Mark 14:45 NIV and if someone could find where they the others call Jesus lord, please reply).

Again, Here is the focus for debate: God gave commandments not because they are wrong, but rather they reveal a heart problem when committed is the topic of discussion. This can be biblical or using today's examples.

I am very interested in what you guys have to say.

[Absol]

At first, i thought "heart problems" as medical problem. But eh.

[northcity4]

At first, i thought "heart problems" as medical problem. But eh.

I will re word it

[OldTrees]

Better definition of Morality:

The term “morality” can be used normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

[northcity4]

Better definition of Morality:

The term “morality” can be used normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

I didn't ask for a definition. Here is the focus for debate: God gave commandments not because they are wrong, but rather they reveal a heart problem when committed
Debate here.

We will be using the definition of sin as our morality definition for this matter.

[OldTrees]

Better definition of Morality:

The term “morality” can be used normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

I didn't ask for a definition. Here is the focus for debate: God gave commandments not because they are wrong, but rather they reveal a heart problem when committed
Debate here.

We will be using the definition of sin as our morality definition for this matter.

#2 was a poor premise that you used in your conclusion. I singled it out and provided reason to find it false. The reason I pointed out does not interfere with the common usage of the word sin.

[McSod]

It sounds to me as if you're trying to debate, within religious connotation, the difference between ethics and morals.

I also think you mean... guilt? when you say 'heart problem' (correct me if I'm wrong)? Knowing that one is doing something wrong vs. flat out not doing it.

Now granted, I'm an atheist m'self, but that doesn't play into the argument here.

[northcity4]

What I mean is did God command us in the bible, like the 10 commandments, to say don't do these because they are wrong or rather if you love me as big as you say, you wouldn't be doing these things?

[OldTrees]

What I mean is did God command us in the bible, like the 10 commandments, to say don't do these because they are wrong or rather if you love me as big as you say, you wouldn't be doing these things?

So your question is akin to asking:
Are the 10 commandments a list of impermissible actions or a list of morally permissive but not morally ideal actions?

[northcity4]

What I mean is did God command us in the bible, like the 10 commandments, to say don't do these because they are wrong or rather if you love me as big as you say, you wouldn't be doing these things?

So your question is akin to asking:
Are the 10 commandments a list of impermissible actions or a list of morally permissive but not morally ideal actions?

Some are morally permissive I would say. Here is why: let's say you grow up not knowing stealing is wrong and you steal one day, but don't know it--> you didn't do an immoral act.

If you say you love God, then you know stealing is wrong. If you still steal and say you love God a lot, we have a problem. Like that verse you can't serve both God and money.

As far as impermissible, some we grow up knowing. Murder for example seems to be inherent in almost everyone.

I am afraid I am still asking if God would really just make a set of laws purely to make order? This would violate the 'true moral character' of someone.

[McSod]

Seems you're more on the theological side of this 'un. So... yeah.

 A christian god seems to be one that would absolutely lay down a set of rules, to keep order. From the first stories of Eden, once we ate from the tree, we were then supposed to know what 'sin' is. We're supposed to know right from wrong, and make the choice to "not be wrong", from within ourselves. The fact that we have 'free will', as it were, and the very concept of the 'fallible human steeped in original sin' says that by nature, man as a creature is self serving. If the commandments themselves came from this god, they were put there so we further knew what the rules were to get into his kingdom, et cetera.

It still seems like your examples are kind of... broken, though. I think even thieves grow up knowing it's socially 'wrong' to steal. But the ends justify those means. And that circle, it may be perfectly permissible.

Again, I feel it comes to ethics vs. morals. An ethical man knows what is right. A moral man will try to ~do~ what is right.

[northcity4]

Seems you're more on the theological side of this 'un. So... yeah.

 A christian god seems to be one that would absolutely lay down a set of rules, to keep order. From the first stories of Eden, once we ate from the tree, we were then supposed to know what 'sin' is. We're supposed to know right from wrong, and make the choice to "not be wrong", from within ourselves. The fact that we have 'free will', as it were, and the very concept of the 'fallible human steeped in original sin' says that by nature, man as a creature is self serving. If the commandments themselves came from this god, they were put there so we further knew what the rules were to get into his kingdom, et cetera.

It still seems like your examples are kind of... broken, though. I think even thieves grow up knowing it's socially 'wrong' to steal. But the ends justify those means. And that circle, it may be perfectly permissible.

Again, I feel it comes to ethics vs. morals. An ethical man knows what is right. A moral man will try to ~do~ what is right.

1) ends cannot justify means for permissibility. In permissiblity the means justify the ends: http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/25299-intricate-ethics-rights-responsibilities-and-permissible-harm/ read the 4 examples Kamm lists about half way down the page.

2) Jesus said love the lord your god with you all you got basically. And the same is to love your neighbor as yourself. This is different from the 10 commandments yet there is no punishment for not doing them.

Let me ask this: what is the point of free will and forcing us to be good? Could the 10 commandments be like road checks to make sure you are on the right path?