Commandments/Loving God problem

[destruct]

His explanation was that they are morally wrong.  There is no other explanation required.  If something is morally wrong, don't do it.  It is that simple, but the Isrealites still did them.
Did God chain them by telling them the right thing to do and giving them free will to do it?  God isn't going to babysit us.  We have to make the right choices on our own.
They are morally wrong because they violate our human nature.  But the fact is that they are [\u] wrong.

The consequences were the result of their actions.  The nation did not accept God and forced him out of their lives, and because he will not violate our free will, he could not help the Isrealites.

[northcity4]

That is the issue today though. How would you feel if your parents said 'this is wrong because we said so?' This is how the Israelites felt. I think the way God communicated was received has chaining when if in reality God was trying to do his best. Do you see the difference?

God's view: follow these rules and your life will be the best.

Israel's view: I don't know why I should stop doing the things I love other than God said so.

Do you agree?

[OldTrees]

That is the issue today though. How would you feel if your parents said 'this is wrong because we said so?' This is how the Israelites felt. I think the way God communicated was received has chaining when if in reality God was trying to do his best. Do you see the difference?

It sounds more like God said "I am informing you these are morally wrong but I am not going to explain why they are immoral". This is usually very different from "This is wrong because I said so". However it is less different under divine command theory (the common ethics for these religions).

[northcity4]

They are the same in their perception. And I am still going to say Israel loved God out of fear.

Scenario 1) I know its wrong-->good reason to believe so: chances of not doing it are high.

Scenario 2) I was told its wrong--->don't know why: chances of not doing it are small.

Why do you think Israel made the golden calph? The reasons God gave were so bland and Israel is thinking: You want me to follow you God based on what? The commandments? Why do I really have to follow these? So, in a sense, they were told:  "I am informing you these are morally wrong but I am not going to explain why they are immoral" but felt in actuality: "This is wrong because I said so" I don't blame the Israelites for what they did in this sense and rather blame God for being dumb in not realizing he was just as single minded as a human parent.

[BluePriest]

You are mistaking Gods permissive will will Gods preventive will.

Say you are the isrealites. God sets you free from Pharoa by turning a sea to blood, killing the firstborn of all the unbelievers, sending a plague, opening up a giant pathway in a giant river, and then closing it on your purser that chases you. If ou look at the isrealites, every step of the way they doubted God. When they got to the sea, they cried out saying that they would rather be slaves than die there, and God opened the path. It was a constant problem the isrealites had. Now, to me, if someone just does al the things he listed (note if I witnessed them first hand) then why would i doubt him when he gave me 10 laws to follow that honestly arent bad laws? Why do I need God to treat me like a baby and tell me every single thing that he is planning when he obviously wants me to have faith that he knows what he is doing (he just split a freakin sea after I doubted him, why would i doubt his greater knowledge on this subject?).

The isrealites made a golden calf because they wanted their own God. They wanted to create one, because it was easier. You see man doing this today. They take out parts of the bible they dont like, or they find a part they dont like and just stop believing.

[northcity4]

Good point, but I think you missed what I am looking for.

Yes, Israelites had no excuse to not trust God.

Here is my issue: why believe/love God? Believe in him because if you don't he'll send other countries to conquer to you (fear) or love him for who he is. You examples of the Pharoah's time are good in this sense: God tried his loving best to do what he could to show Israel 'I love you this much.' I just think it's terrible God tried to make the Israelites to force love him. In my opinion, the commandments were more of a way of forcing someone to love you.

Example: (fireproof is a good example) You are married and your wife doesn't seem to love. You do everything you can to show her that you love her just as much: you love her for her. She chooses to go away from you (same as Israel wandering from God even though he rescued them in their time of need in Egypt and loved them anyways). You then choose to force her to love you (10 commandments). To be honest, that is messed up. If your wife still chooses to not love you back even after everything you did, you don't force her, you let her go and make her decision to leave. In the same way, God should have left the Israelites alone and let them experience life: let them decide if they want the world or God.

Now, I read the entire Old Testament and at the very end, I came up with this conclusion (before I even thought of this thread): God finally said 'fine, live your own life.' Why did it take God so long to do so and why force love in the first place? It is easy for scholars to say their were many reasons why considering the culture of the time, but in reality, if God created Humanity to love him back, he needs them to choose to love him, not force love him and the 10 commandments were just another chain in Israels mind.

[BluePriest]

Good point, but I think you missed what I am looking for.

Yes, Israelites had no excuse to not trust God.

Here is my issue: why believe/love God? Believe in him because if you don't he'll send other countries to conquer to you (fear) or love him for who he is. You examples of the Pharoah's time are good in this sense: God tried his loving best to do what he could to show Israel 'I love you this much.' I just think it's terrible God tried to make the Israelites to force love him. In my opinion, the commandments were more of a way of forcing someone to love you.

Why do you believe it was God who put them in slavery? They got there on their own. He didnt PUT them in slavery. Instead, he set them free from it. I dont see where he is forcing them to love him.

Example: (fireproof is a good example) You are married and your wife doesn't seem to love. You do everything you can to show her that you love her just as much: you love her for her. She chooses to go away from you (same as Israel wandering from God even though he rescued them in their time of need in Egypt and loved them anyways). You then choose to force her to love you (10 commandments). To be honest, that is messed up. If your wife still chooses to not love you back even after everything you did, you don't force her, you let her go and make her decision to leave. In the same way, God should have left the Israelites alone and let them experience life: let them decide if they want the world or God.

But God didnt force them to love him. He said, these are my laws. He never said "I am going to force you to love me". If that was the case then there would be no one turning away from him. Instead, he said "I love you, and if you love me, you will keepmy commandments. These are my commandments.

Now, I read the entire Old Testament and at the very end, I came up with this conclusion (before I even thought of this thread): God finally said 'fine, live your own life.' Why did it take God so long to do so and why force love in the first place? It is easy for scholars to say their were many reasons why considering the culture of the time, but in reality, if God created Humanity to love him back, he needs them to choose to love him, not force love him and the 10 commandments were just another chain in Israels mind.

Isrealites wanted to live however they pleased. You can take the stance that there are no absolute truths, but to God, there ARE absolute truths. You are looking at everything from a point of bondage. Which commandments do you think the isrealites had a problem with?

1)You shall have no other gods before me- saying hey, I just proved to you who I am, why would you put something else before me
2)Make no graven image- saying hey, that stuff isnt me. Youve seen me. Dont worship the thing, worship me.
3)Do not take my name in vain-Do not use me as a word to curse someone. Would you consider it respectful if someone called you a name and used your mothers name in a negative fashion to do it?
4)Honor the sabbath-I just set you free and have many other things I want to do for you. Give me 1 of your days each week where you will remember me.
5)Honor you father and mother-You were apain as  ababy, they deserve respect for putting up with you
6)Do not murder- ya know, cause its pretty universally accepted that this is bad
7)Do not commit adultery-Once again, pretty universally accepted its bad
8)Do not steal- Its not yours, dont take it
9)Dont lie-If you lie, then why should anyone believe anything you say thats the truth. You hurt yourself more than help yourself when you lie
10)Do not envy-Envying is the first step to many different sins. I am God, I gave you these things. IF I gave your neighbor something else its for a certain reason. Dont want his stuff because ultimately, all this stuff really means nothing at all.

What commandment do you think was so overbearing that the isrealites couldnt handle it? Or do you think that in reality, they just wanted tolive however they pleased with no consequences whatsoever? I think its the 2nd one myself, and THAT was the problem.

ps. I recommend reading the new testament too if you havent yet already.

[northcity4]

I will take the sections 1 by 1.

1st section: I didn't say God put them in slavery. I know how it actually happened after Joseph died. So we have an agreement here.

2nd section: Yes, correct and I wish the Israelites understood this...but they didn't see it that way in my opinion. I feel they saw it as 'if you love me, do these things, but if you don't, I will severely punish you.'

3rd section: Most of them I don't see as bad comandments, but for the culture of the time: the 1st - 4th ones were ones that probably ticked off the Israelites (they are also the ones we them break the most) because in their view, this was controlling. What if they wanted to love another God? Now this question can only work if the Israelites felt what I posted in section 2. Let's assume for a moment Israel did feel these commandments were force love/bondage. Now the commandments of don't worship any other Gods seems controlling don't you think?

Lastly: I think we should rephrase your almost last statement: Israel wanted to live as they pleased with natural consequences. In reality, it was God who caused the consequences to be honest.

--->I will accept the fact the opposing argument: the Israelites were going to be taken over and the Israelites said 'we can do this on our own and withstand them.'
This is where I feel we need to talk about next.

Final comments: even if I am wrong and that other countries 'naturally' were going to come and take over Israel, I don't feel God made it clear enough he loved Israel.
Israels view: God is just trying to make us love him with these rules and threats of punishment (this is actually how they felt), so we are going to choose on our own that we don't love God (examples: turning away a lot and the golden calph).

I think this is what I am trying to say: It is like a parent telling a kid: if you love me, don't have sex outside marriage. So, why is that morally wrong? There can be tons of consequences for it...but why is it wrong? If you are married and respect your wife and love her, you will stop doing things out of love for her...but for the ISraelites, they saw it a different way: God was more like a parent then a spouse and they felt bondage and not love. So, I guess I will say that God was trying to do his best here, but Israel perceived it differently. It is not until the Beatitudes and John 15 that will really begin to see God explaining himself. I just wish he had done so much earlier.

[BluePriest]

I think I am missing what you are arguing. State as plainly as possible what your point is, so that Im sure I am understanding you if you dont mind. I feel like Im arguing something and youre arguing something, but what we are arguing is completely different.

[northcity4]

I see...

The simplest way I can put it is:

God had one plan for the Israelites, Israel interpreted it a different. Knowing this, please re read the underlined part of my last post and hopefully that clears things up.

Example: Like setting a curfew for children: in your view, this is for their own good and you are doing it because you love them. The child though might think: this is dumb, why should I have a curfew? You are only making my life worse and you don't really care about me.

This make sense?

[BluePriest]

Ok, so youre saying the 10 commandments hurt more than helped the isrealites? You could be right. However,we have to remember that God does things for a purpose that is larger than just 1 group of people. Those 10 commandments may not have helped the isrealites much in their current state, however, it did help the people that came after the isrealites (see new testament when jews are all following it), and even today.

As per your underlined part though, the golden calf wasnt created because of the 10 commandments. In fact, the problem was that all they wanted was to hear from God, and to them, God was taking too long to deliver, and so they were losing faith in him due to the extended period of time it was taking for moses to come back down the altar. 

[northcity4]

My issue here is if this is true, I don't feel like God can justify using Israel's lives as the platform (it hurt them more than it helped) to help millions of people after them (Jews).

The next issue I want to deal is the morality of the commandments.
It's one thing to respect someone in certain things you do. example: if you have a friend who doesn't eat meat, you won't eat meat near them. Now, eating meat is not wrong, but you respect you friend enough to not eat around them.

In Israel's case: God hated adultery for example. To be honest, I cannot think of a philosophical reason to condemn adultery as morally wrong, but God hates it. So, Israel, should they care about God, won't do it...but don't you think it has gone a bit far?

I ask my friends not to curse around me...but I don't ask them to never curse. In the same way, telling Israel to never sleep with women outside marriage or lust? Seems unethical, but to tell them to never do it? I feel this is another reason the commandments hurt them more than it helped.