Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable?

[Artois]

Personally, I think Holy Ghost sounds like something from Lord of the Rings. Yeah.. I don't believe in ghosts.

Awesome, I get to go to Lake of Fire! Who's with me?

Awesomeness, I'll come and keep you company Scaredgirl, I think hell will be much more fun with you there!

[xdude]

Come with you, I shall. *opens Light saber*

[PhuzzY LogiK]

Awesome, I get to go to Lake of Fire! Who's with me?

I'm pretty sure that by the time my life is over, I'll have earned a penthouse on the beach.  Everyone is welcome to drop by! 

[Uzra]

Of course everyone is savable.. Just be a little smart.  Here's an example

[ratcharmer]

Haggai 2:7
And I will shake ALL NATIONS, and the desire of ALL NATIONS shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

Joel 3:2
I will also gather ALL NATIONS, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land

It seems entirely plausible to come to Christian Universalism based off of the KJV English Bible. The above passages are just a couple out of many, many passages that could be argued to support it.

[Boingo]

Awesomeness, I'll come and keep you company Scaredgirl, I think hell will be much more fun with you there!

Not sure you've fully grasped the concept of Hell....

------------

For my 2 cents, there is no person who cannot "be saved"--that's sort of the bottom line for Christianity.  Why else does Jesus go out of his way to hang out with unsavory characters and relate parables where the "unclean" people are actually the ones doing good things?

 Now whether everyone WILL be saved is another question.  The only things that keep someone away from God are of the person's own making.  I'll recommend 2 books by C.S. Lewis that are a fun read whether or not you believe in the Christian faith (and I doubt very much any of you will ACTUALLY read them, but here goes anyway:)

The Screwtape Letters  <--very clever style, short read
The Great Divorce    <---this one is probably most apropos of this thread since it gives (fictional) examples of how individuals refuse to let themselves into heaven

Remember, he spent much of his adult life away from Christianity before making a conversion back to it so he's not a "born-into-it-and-never-thought-otherwise" Christian.

[BluePriest]

Haggai 2:7
And I will shake ALL NATIONS, and the desire of ALL NATIONS shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

Joel 3:2
I will also gather ALL NATIONS, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land

It seems entirely plausible to come to Christian Universalism based off of the KJV English Bible. The above passages are just a couple out of many, many passages that could be argued to support it.

anyone can randomly grasp a few scriptures. You have to look at the bible as a whole. Not a single scripture.

[Belthus]

Universalism was a common doctrine in the early Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism#Ancient_Church).

In the first five or six centuries of Christian history, the majority of theological schools in the East taught Universalism.[9]  The most important such school was the Didascalium in Alexandria, Egypt, which was founded by Saint Pantaenus ca. 190 C.E.[10]  Alexandria was the center of learning and intellectual discourse in the ancient Mediterranean world, and was the theological center of gravity of Christianity prior to the rise of the imperial Roman Church.[11]  Alexandrian Christianity emphasized apocatastasis  and theosis  as its main teachings.

Saint Clement of Alexandria succeeded Pantaenus as the second head of the Didascalium in the late 2nd century. He was a prolific writer who combined Bible scholarship with Greek philosophy to present a systematic theology based on Christian Universalist beliefs.[12]

Origen was the student and successor of Clement of Alexandria. This 3rd century theologian is generally regarded as the most significant of all the ancient teachers of Christian Universalism. He wrote over 6,000 works including commentaries on almost every book of the Bible, sermons, treatises, letters, apologies, and the Hexapla, a scholarly translation of the Old Testament.[13]

Saint Gregory of Nyssa and Saint Macrina the Younger, who were brother and sister, were both prominent Christian Universalists of the 4th century in the Alexandrian tradition of Clement and Origen.[14][15] Gregory of Nyssa was a bishop and theologian. Macrina the Younger was the leader of a convent of nuns.

Another branch of Christian Universalism in the ancient church, separate from the Alexandria school, was the Nestorian movement which later became the Assyrian Church of the East. Nestorianism originated in the 5th century in Constantinople and Antioch. Theodore of Mopsuestia was an influential bishop who introduced universal reconciliation into the liturgy of the Nestorians, and who is still honored in the Nestorian tradition as the "Interpreter" of the faith.[16]

So it seems that those who were closer in time to Jesus believed that he would save everyone.

[BluePriest]

Universalism was a common doctrine in the early Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism#Ancient_Church).

In the first five or six centuries of Christian history, the majority of theological schools in the East taught Universalism.[9]  The most important such school was the Didascalium in Alexandria, Egypt, which was founded by Saint Pantaenus ca. 190 C.E.[10]  Alexandria was the center of learning and intellectual discourse in the ancient Mediterranean world, and was the theological center of gravity of Christianity prior to the rise of the imperial Roman Church.[11]  Alexandrian Christianity emphasized apocatastasis  and theosis  as its main teachings.

Saint Clement of Alexandria succeeded Pantaenus as the second head of the Didascalium in the late 2nd century. He was a prolific writer who combined Bible scholarship with Greek philosophy to present a systematic theology based on Christian Universalist beliefs.[12]

Origen was the student and successor of Clement of Alexandria. This 3rd century theologian is generally regarded as the most significant of all the ancient teachers of Christian Universalism. He wrote over 6,000 works including commentaries on almost every book of the Bible, sermons, treatises, letters, apologies, and the Hexapla, a scholarly translation of the Old Testament.[13]

Saint Gregory of Nyssa and Saint Macrina the Younger, who were brother and sister, were both prominent Christian Universalists of the 4th century in the Alexandrian tradition of Clement and Origen.[14][15] Gregory of Nyssa was a bishop and theologian. Macrina the Younger was the leader of a convent of nuns.

Another branch of Christian Universalism in the ancient church, separate from the Alexandria school, was the Nestorian movement which later became the Assyrian Church of the East. Nestorianism originated in the 5th century in Constantinople and Antioch. Theodore of Mopsuestia was an influential bishop who introduced universal reconciliation into the liturgy of the Nestorians, and who is still honored in the Nestorian tradition as the "Interpreter" of the faith.[16]

So it seems that those who were closer in time to Jesus believed that he would save everyone.

and yet its still not biblically supported when looked at objectively. Thats what matters, not who believes it. Billy Grahm could believe it for all I care, and unless there was sound biblical evidence, I wouldnt. Thats what matters.

[Belthus]

and yet its still not biblically supported when looked at objectively. Thats what matters, not who believes it. Billy Grahm could believe it for all I care, and unless there was sound biblical evidence, I wouldnt. Thats what matters.

The Bible was written by human beings. Human beings decided which books to include and which to exclude. You claim that the processes of writing and editing were divinely inspired. However, it is just as plausible to say that the early Christians I cited were divinely inspired.

Someone else has cited Biblical evidence above, and you declined to address those verses. The article I cited gives 20 Bible verses. I think it's fair to say that some people interpret the Bible to support universalism, and others interpret it to oppose universalism.

[BluePriest]

and yet its still not biblically supported when looked at objectively. Thats what matters, not who believes it. Billy Grahm could believe it for all I care, and unless there was sound biblical evidence, I wouldnt. Thats what matters.

The Bible was written by human beings. Human beings decided which books to include and which to exclude. You claim that the processes of writing and editing were divinely inspired. However, it is just as plausible to say that the early Christians I cited were divinely inspired.

Someone else has cited Biblical evidence above, and you declined to address those verses. The article I cited gives 20 Bible verses. I think it's fair to say that some people interpret the Bible to support universalism, and others interpret it to oppose universalism.

The bibe WAS divinely inspired by God, and thats why THATS what matters, and not what people say. If you dont base it off of the bible then you have nothing to base it off of.

*sigh* I suppose Ill go into a misinterpreted bible debunking mode for a bit,
And Im glad these are someone elses sources, not yours, and that I know you are arguing for arguments sake, otherwise, I would have to question your intelligence.


Jesus' prophecy that he will "draw all men" to himself (John 12:32) --- Look at the verses around it. It is talking baout his death, it did draw a ton of people to him. LITERALLY. They doesnt mean they will all be saved though.
Jesus' teaching that God is "Our Father in heaven" (Matthew 6:9)--- Yes, and just like im my sisters brother whether she likes it or not. That doesnt mean I have to accept her.
Jesus' teaching that all things will be renewed. (Matthew 19:28)--- Yes, they will be, but it doesnt say they will all be saved.
Jesus' teaching that the unforgiving servant will be turned "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed." (Matthew 18:34)--- You realize that this verse is talking about forgiveness and repaying debts (literally money debts) Also, the very next verse says that God will also not forgive you if you dont forgive, so it is pretty much saying the exact OPPOSITE
Jesus' statement that human beings are "gods" (John 10:34, quoting Psalm 82:6)---Once again, go the the verse hes quoting, and the VERY NEXT VERSE says "But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes" This has nothing to do with universalism
Paul's teaching that human beings are God's "offspring" (Acts 17:28)--- Once again another verse that has nothing to do with this.
Paul's teaching that there is "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:6)--- You realize that Paul is talking to them in a sense of through all believers correct? So this is irrelevant and doesnt help at all

Paul's teaching that "from [God] and through him and to him are all things" (Romans 11:36)--- All this is saying is that God is the life of all things. That doesnt mean he will accept them though. Once again, an irrelevant verse for universalism
Paul's prophecy that "as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" (1 Corinthians 15:22)--- Yes, IN CHRIST all will be made alive, but if you arent in christ, then you wont be.
Paul's teaching that "just as the result of one trespass [by Adam] was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness [by Christ] was justification that brings life for all men. ... through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:18-19)--- Look at the bold underlined italic. It says many, not all... hmmm....  Because of Jesus dieing, it is much easier to become right with God, so more will be right with him.
Paul's teaching that "God was pleased (...)to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Colossians 1:19-20)--- Talking about how Jesus paid the price for our sins. So yes, if we accept that, then you will be saved, but this is far from saying that no matter what you will be saved.
Paul's statement that God "is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)--- Take a few steps back. 8 words back to be exact. Right before that it says "because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men."
Paul's teaching that "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them" (2 Corinthians 5:19)--- I always think its pathetic when I can read 1-2 verses down to completely disprove the point. Next verse. "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christs behalf, be reconciled to God" Once again saying that you need to make the choice to be reconciled. God made the door,the lock, and gave you the key. You just have to walk through it.
Paul's prophecy that "every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10-11)--- Yep, the demons will confess he is God, that does not mean that God will accept them. That verse doesnt say he will accept them either. It just says that all will bow to him.
Peter's teaching that Jesus "died for sins once for all" and "went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago" (1 Peter 3:18-20), so that they may "live according to God in regard to the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6)---And what do you think he preached about? Colossians Notes that he made a spectacle out of them in 2:15. Peter 4:6 has actually left topic of 3:18 and went on to say that pretty much if you died before All of this happened, you would be judged just as if you were alive at the time, and if you were disobient to God, you would still be judged accordingly. This is only good news to those that followed God, not that didnt.
John's teaching that "[Jesus Christ] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2)--- Yes, for the whole world, if they accept him. Read the whole bible, not just parts of it.
Old Testament teaching that men and women are created "in the image of God" (Genesis 1:27)--- That doesnt prove that they will be accepted in heaven...
Old Testament teaching that "[God's] anger lasts only a moment" (Psalm 30:5)--- Yes, but that doesnt mean that God will accept them after that moment. Say you did something wrong, and your dad punishes you while hes angry. Just because he gets calmed down, that doesnt mean your punishment is lifted.
Old Testament teaching that "[God] is good; his love endures forever" (Psalm 106:1, 107:1)--- Yep, but you have to choose it.
Old Testament teaching that "The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. / All you have made will praise you, O LORD" (Psalm 145:9-10)--- Yes, he has compassion, that is why he
1)Sent his Son
2)Gave us a choice.
And as I said before, just because we will all praise him in the end, doesnt mean we are all going to heaven.

Are you happy now? If you look at how off topic those are, then you will see why I just ignored it until you insisted.

Oh, and ratcharmers, I almost forgot

Haggai 2:7
And I will shake ALL NATIONS, and the desire of ALL NATIONS shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.---Where does that even imply that ALL NATIONS will be saved?

Joel 3:2
I will also gather ALL NATIONS, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land--- Yes, it is saying that he will plead for HIS PEOPLE, not ALL PEOPLE.

*sigh*

[iampostal]

Using your logic Heaven is empty and NO ONE has ever been saved because the list of rules presented in your silly bible is impossible to follow...i was abeliever and i became a non believer after reading the bible....the bible says pray for what you want...i did...i didnt get it there fore christ is a LIAR and FLASE MESSIAH perhaps it is you christ that needs saving if hes not too busy being tortured to death by his dad. the belief that a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he cna remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree is INSANE read it again because this is what you actually believe