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Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg114033#msg114033
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2010, 03:06:45 am »
Actually none of the reasons are the reason for it. The real reason is because he took his son as a sacrifice, for us to all see, and so, because of that, we need to accept him. Its not envy, pride, or vanity. And also, the verse I cited, fits for it as well. a kingdom divided can not stand. Period.

And whether you want to accept it as a good reason or not, it really is a very logical reason. Why set up something that is just going to fall. God gave human kind one chance. Thats all we need.
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KyuubisSlave

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg114046#msg114046
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2010, 03:28:48 am »
Actually none of the reasons are the reason for it. The real reason is because he took his son as a sacrifice, for us to all see, and so, because of that, we need to accept him. Its not envy, pride, or vanity. And also, the verse I cited, fits for it as well. a kingdom divided can not stand. Period.

And whether you want to accept it as a good reason or not, it really is a very logical reason. Why set up something that is just going to fall. God gave human kind one chance. Thats all we need.
so god is blaming all humanity for the mistakes of people long sense dead? as for the Kingdom divided crap, God could easily take these perfectly kind and sinless people into his kingdom and explain to them that he was the river and the forest and the wonderful bounty. after all god is technically everything. buy no, he chooses to send these people to hell for something out of thier control....

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg114048#msg114048
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2010, 03:32:04 am »
so god is blaming all humanity for the mistakes of people long sense dead? Nope. It is the things they are doing each day. Im not even sure where you got that.as for the Kingdom divided crap, God could easily take these perfectly kind and sinless people into his kingdom and explain to them that he was the river and the forest and the wonderful bounty. after all god is technically everythingBut he wants us to have a genuine faith based love. If you dont like it. Get over it.. buy no, he chooses to send these people to hell for something out of thier control....How is it out of thier control, Just as much as the problem is choice, you always HAVE a choice.
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KyuubisSlave

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg114057#msg114057
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2010, 03:44:53 am »
Some one never introduced to Christianity has a choice?

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg114161#msg114161
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2010, 08:30:42 am »
Some one never introduced to Christianity has a choice?
No, if they don't take God as their saviour, then it's eternal Hell, and that includes all the tribes before Christianity, all Chinamen, all Hindu's, all non-christians (although Jews & Muslims are probably OK)... now you notice that Christians, Jews & Muslims love killing each other... so I recommend hell, as it will be safer!

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Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg114581#msg114581
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2010, 09:12:37 pm »
Some one never introduced to Christianity has a choice?
I once again say that that is why the blood is on Christians hands for not doing a better job. Yes it may seem sort of like a cop out from your point of view, but from my point of view, Christians (including myself) should have been a better example so that a situation like that never could have happened.
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Thracken

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg145752#msg145752
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2010, 08:51:02 pm »
To answer the original post: Yes, I believe that everyone is savable. However, having said that, I don't believe that everyone WILL be saved.

First, relative to a large number of comments, I want to state that I am a Christian, however, I don't believe that the Bible is the ultimate authority - I believe that God is the ultimate authority.

Second,  I also believe in continuing revelation and an open scriptural cannon - that is, I believe that God, who I view as a loving, Heavenly Father, continues to guide and direct individuals who seek his guidance. This guidance can be sought through prayer and meditation, and can be received as inspiration from the Holy Ghost.

Third, I believe that personal salvation is a combination of grace and works - that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. Belief/knowledge that Christ is the Savior/Redeemer is not enough - "Thou believest there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19, KJV)" Accepting Christ is a necessary step to salvation, but if we do nothing more than acknowledge him than we have failed to understand our duty as Christians. I believe that at judgment day God intends to hold us accountable for our actions, relative the light and knowledge that we have.

So, a person who is simply told that Jesus is their Savior by a friend is different from a person who has received, through the Holy Ghost, a witness that Jesus is their Savior. In the first instance, that individual will likely be accountable for whether or not they sought out the truth of Christ being their Savior. In the second instance, that individual will likely be held to a higher standard, because of the revelation which he has received.

Unfortunately, as humans, we sometimes choose to go against what we know to be true/right. The ability to choose is the test of mortality - to see whether we will obey, or not. Those who have had much light and knowledge given to them, and then choose to turn away are held accountable for such actions. While it is possible for someone deep in sin to repent and change, it is often difficult, and some, lacking faith, choose to give in to their sins, rather than fight their way out. Thus, while they COULD have been saved, they choose not to be saved.

Finally, there are likely millions, perhaps billions, who have lived throughout the history of the Earth, who never had the chance to even hear the name of Jesus Christ. My beliefs are that the spirit of each person, when they die, goes to a place of waiting. There, those who know the truth have the opportunity to teach it to those who do not:

Quote
"For Christ also hath once suffered  for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" (1 Peter 3:18-19, KJV)

"For  for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged  according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6, KJV)
Thus, those who never had the opportunity in mortality to accept Christ are given the choice, for which they can now be held accountable.

I realize that some of the ideas presented here are not widely-held beliefs. The scriptures offered are humbly submitted for support. If you have a differing opinion, I welcome discussion, and, of course, encourage you to go directly to the source - ask God for yourself and see if you can confirm or deny my beliefs, by citing the ULTIMATE authority.

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg145815#msg145815
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2010, 10:40:54 pm »
Heres a question for you relating to ultimate authority. Do you believe that the bible is divinely inspired? If so, then I dont see a difference between the two.
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Offline Daytripper

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg146158#msg146158
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2010, 10:19:31 am »
There is an interesting passage in the beginning of Dante's Inferno that gets to the core of this problem. I don't know where it is, but it doesn't matter if you start at the beginning. Now, what i will say now is not what Dante was primarily interested in, but I got the idea there anyway.

A living soul accompanied by Vergilius, I believe, made a journey starting at the front portal of hell. In the front portal no real punishment was there, it was just an eternal waiting chamber for those that existed before Christianity. For example, all ancient Greece philosophers were found there. Good and wise men, but they happened to have honoured the wrong gods. So they were just incredibly bored and the mood was down.

Such an interpretation of Christianity does not always fly well in modern times. That's why you hear often it's all still ok as long as you're a good person. Or...you get saved regardless.

In the end it depends on what we think we know about God. One would hope the more modern interpretation is valid, but that is certainly not what people believed in earlier times. It does not make much sense people keep re interpreting scripture to suit their needs.

(Of course I personally think the whole idea is flawed, but the argumentation is possible nonetheless.)

 
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Thracken

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg146319#msg146319
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2010, 05:30:12 pm »
Heres a question for you relating to ultimate authority. Do you believe that the bible is divinely inspired? If so, then I dont see a difference between the two.
An excellent point. I do believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. The difference between the Bible being ultimate authority and God being the ultimate authority is two-fold:

First, the Bible that we currently have is not being handed to us directly from its authors. Taking the New Testament as an example, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, and the other writers have all been dead for roughly 2000 years. During that time, the bible has been translated from its original language several times, and has been re-translated many, many times, with some of those re-translations being made from earlier translations (a quick google search shows between 8-11 major historical translations, and multiple sites come up showing that they provide access to over 100 different translations). In my view God does not prevent us from making mistakes, or even from making deliberately bad choices. Thus, it's possible that mistakes or even deliberate changes have been perpetuated in the Bible. Additionally, conflicting copies of various books and manuscripts that have been tattered by time contribute to the possibility of errors. Further, this doesn't take into account any variance between the regularly published bible, and any non-standard/apocryphal works.

Second, even between those who use the same translation of the Bible, varying opinions/interpretations exist as to the meaning of many, many passages. This variance is reflected in Christianity itself - Wikipedia shows that there are "approximately 38000 Christian denominations, many of which cannot be verified to be significant." How is it possible to resolve this discrepancies in opinion? An appeal to the Bible would simply confound the issue further, as that is where the initial disagreement lies. I believe that real truth is universal and unchanging - that is, truth is the same in all times, in all things, and in all places, and can be applied to anyone or anything without having to be re-evaluated. Truth cannot be decided by a vote - had the Roman empire taken a vote, the Christians certainly would have been in the minority.

Thus, while I believe that the Bible is an excellent source for teaching us about what God would have us do, I also believe that an appeal to God to learn if we have interpreted his will correctly is beneficial, even necessary. I hope this helps you understand my point of view.

iampostal

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg169905#msg169905
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2010, 07:54:56 pm »
what a weak question..can everyone be saved.....saved from what?based on what?on what evidence...please provide

iampostal

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Re: Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6547.msg169908#msg169908
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2010, 07:59:19 pm »
even weaker is this clap trap"Thus, while I believe that the Bible is an excellent source for teaching us about what God would have us do, I also believe that an appeal to God to learn if we have interpreted his will correctly is beneficial, even necessary. I hope this helps you understand my point of view."first has it not occured to you that someone who created the universe and made everything would not also have the intelligence to have what if anything he wants clearly defined,and if you actually read the bible  you would see that what god would have us do is butcher boy babies at birth, rape women , take slaves, and kill all disobeyers...not a very compelling figure  at all....but some people will believe anything....

 

blarg: