Christian Viewpoint 1: Is Everyone Savable?

[Belthus]

None of the recent posts have been relating to the concept of being saved, and im not going for liberal christian progressives point of view. Im talking about the bible, and what that says. Would you consider it mroe satisfactory if I said  standard KVV english bible Viewpoint?  The vast majority of people reading this will understand what im talking about

It's funny that you call Catholics and Eastern Orthodox "liberal" and "progressive." They are very conservative and change very slowly. The Protestants left the Church in what must be considered a very radical move and put forward radical doctrines. Catholics and Orthodox are the defenders of tradition, and Protestants are the rebels.

I assume you mean KJV, King James Version, not KVV. It is funny that you reject the churches that made the Bible as being non-Christian.

So let me get this straight. Jesus tries to save everyone. He has great powers of persuasion. However, his powers of persuasion are not infinite. Therefore, with some people, he fails to convince them of the truth of his message. If he can't persuade everyone, then he isn't omnipotent.

[PuppyChow]

So let me get this straight. Jesus tries to save everyone. He has great powers of persuasion. However, his powers of persuasion are not infinite. Therefore, with some people, he fails to convince them of the truth of his message. If he can't persuade everyone, then he isn't omnipotent.

He *could* persuade everybody, but since he has chosen to give humans free will, we must also be presented with chances to exercise that free will, for good or bad. He chooses not to intervene when we're being tempted.

So he could, but chooses not to because that would be taking away our free will. At least that's how I see it. Does he want everyone to be saved? Yes, we just don't all make the right choices.

[Belthus]

He *could* persuade everybody, but since he has chosen to give humans free will, we must also be presented with chances to exercise that free will, for good or bad. He chooses not to intervene when we're being tempted.

So he could, but chooses not to because that would be taking away our free will. At least that's how I see it. Does he want everyone to be saved? Yes, we just don't all make the right choices.

Persuasion is consistent with free will. People have a conversation, and one changes his/her own mind as a result. Nothing coercive going on. There are differences between people in how persuasive they are. Some people are very persuasive, and others fail to persuade anyone. So we see Jesus (metaphorically anyway) trying to do something - persuade people - and failing at least some of the time.

[PuppyChow]

Persuasion is consistent with free will. People have a conversation, and one changes his/her own mind as a result. Nothing coercive going on. There are differences between people in how persuasive they are. Some people are very persuasive, and others fail to persuade anyone. So we see Jesus (metaphorically anyway) trying to do something - persuade people - and failing at least some of the time.

Jesus could be VERY persuasive, but he doesn't do so. Because if he did, you wouldn't have a choice otherwise. If he wanted to, he could make such an argument and show you some things and you would be unable to refute him.

But he doesn't want that. He wants you to have faith and make the right decision by yourself.

For instance:
Let's say, hypothetically, a parent could convince his son that underaged drinking is bad. Unequivocally convince him. As in, convince him more than a parent every could actually do. Make the parent's son think there is no other alternative and that he should not under any circumstances drink underaged.

But the parent doesn't do so, because the parent wants to see if his son makes the correct decision and doesn't drink. He wants to give his son the chance to make the right decision by himself.

[Artois]

Jesus could be VERY persuasive, but he doesn't do so. Because if he did, you wouldn't have a choice otherwise.

The people he grew up with (nazereth or bethlehem?) weren't persuaded, as far as I can deduce from historical records.   Doesn't this strike you as odd, considering they probably knew him the best?

If he wanted to, he could make such an argument and show you some things and you would be unable to refute him.

Like a miracle?  To be honest the miracles in the bible are a bit lame.  Evangelists heal the sick on TV all the time, but I don't consider it a miracle.

[Belthus]

Persuasion by definition does not violate free will. If it did, it wouldn't be persuasion. It would be intimidation or blackmail or brainwashing. So why is Jesus less than perfectly persuasive? Does his power have limits?

[BluePriest]

Persuasion by definition does not violate free will. If it did, it wouldn't be persuasion. It would be intimidation or blackmail or brainwashing. So why is Jesus less than perfectly persuasive? Does his power have limits?

People dont seem to understand the concept of faith. He didnt come to persuade the world, he came to die. Sorta sucky reason to know you exist imo. He came for you and for me and for everyone. He did what was neccessary for people to step out in faith.

[Artois]

People dont seem to understand the concept of faith. He didnt come to persuade the world, he came to die. Sorta sucky reason to know you exist imo. He came for you and for me and for everyone. He did what was neccessary for people to step out in faith.

Oh no he didn't, his biographers just wrote it up that way in the gospels.

[Belthus]

People dont seem to understand the concept of faith. He didnt come to persuade the world, he came to die. Sorta sucky reason to know you exist imo. He came for you and for me and for everyone. He did what was neccessary for people to step out in faith.

OK. Let's call it "ability to inspire." Jesus inspired many people, but not all, to follow him. His ability to inspire is, as far as we can tell, imperfect. I would guess that sunsets have inspired a larger percentage of humanity than Jesus has.

Was his act of self-sacrifice sufficient to redeem humanity? Or was it insufficient, also requiring faith to pay the balance of the bill? Did he pick up the tab, or did he go Dutch?

[Artois]

People dont seem to understand the concept of faith. He didnt come to persuade the world, he came to die. Sorta sucky reason to know you exist imo. He came for you and for me and for everyone. He did what was neccessary for people to step out in faith.

OK. Let's call it "ability to inspire." Jesus inspired many people, but not all, to follow him. His ability to inspire is, as far as we can tell, imperfect. I would guess that sunsets have inspired a larger percentage of humanity than Jesus has.

Was his act of self-sacrifice sufficient to redeem humanity? Or was it insufficient, also requiring faith to pay the balance of the bill? Did he pick up the tab, or did he go Dutch?

Was his act of sacrifice any greater than the deaths of all the infants under 2 that Herod ordered, in his attempt to snuff Jesus before he started?

[mac10289]

Everyone is Savable to point. There IS ONE! unforgivable sin. Yes, that sounds incorrect I know, but the Bible says in Matthew 12: 31 - 32 " Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." That quote is from a Nelson King James Version Bible.

What that means to me is, if someone says that the Holy Ghost is not real and denies that It has ever existed is speaking against It. Those are atheists. If they do, however, have a doubt that the Holy Ghost, Jesus, and God have and do exist then they may still be saved, but those that have no faith in and speak against the Holy Ghost can not be saved. Therefore, according to the Bible, not everyone is savable.

Also, someone earlier in this post said that everyone will eventually be saved, that is also incorrect. There will be people who do not make it into Heaven due to the fact that they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, and therefore will spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

[Scaredgirl]

Everyone is Savable to point. There IS ONE! unforgivable sin. Yes, that sounds incorrect I know, but the Bible says in Matthew 12: 31 - 32 " Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." That quote is from a Nelson King James Version Bible.

What that means to me is, if someone says that the Holy Ghost is not real and denies that It has ever existed is speaking against It. Those are atheists. If they do, however, have a doubt that the Holy Ghost, Jesus, and God have and do exist then they may still be saved, but those that have no faith in and speak against the Holy Ghost can not be saved. Therefore, according to the Bible, not everyone is savable.

Also, someone earlier in this post said that everyone will eventually be saved, that is also incorrect. There will be people who do not make it into Heaven due to the fact that they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, and therefore will spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Personally, I think Holy Ghost sounds like something from Lord of the Rings. Yeah.. I don't believe in ghosts.

Awesome, I get to go to Lake of Fire! Who's with me?