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Artois

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Bethlehem, virgins and Jesus. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33826.msg426688#msg426688
« on: November 17, 2011, 04:11:04 pm »
From what I understand...

Joseph & Mary went to Bethlehem under the Roman orders of a census, whilst Mary 'the virgin' was pregnant with Jesus.  Apparently there was a prophecy that the Messiah/son of God would be born in Bethlehem(?) from the line of King David (I'm not sure) of which Joseph could trace his lineage?

Now, Im confused, over a number of these biblical issues, and am hoping a bible scholar can help...

1.  The reference to giving birth in Bethlehem is I believe only mentioned in just one Book.
2.  There is absolutely no record of any Roman census at this time, in Israel.
3.  Further, there is no evidence that a census requires anyone to travel to the town of their birth.
4.  To fulfill the Messiah prophecy, the child must be of the line of david(?), and therefore I assume Joseph rather than God has be the father?

I accept, that I may have some details wrong, as I dont read the bible, as I find it poorly written, and the plot is a bit too 'tenuous' for my literary tastes, however, I hope the more learned can help shine a light on this curiousity.

Thank you, and for those that watch QI, we blessedly thank David Mitchell & Stephen Fry for this gem.

Artois

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Re: Bethlehem, virgins and Jesus. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33826.msg427744#msg427744
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2011, 10:46:48 am »
OOh, no replies, and a one star rating?!!

I guess I am the only one curious about the possibility that the bible can be mistaken about the birth of Jesus, and IF it can get something so simple wrong, it is impossible to take anything in it at face value.  Of course the bible is the cornerstone, the foundation, the bedrock of Christianity... yet it would seem to be 'mistaken'.

I am therefore, until I hear otherwise, of the belief that Christians are mistaken, and that 'faith' or 'belief' are not virtues, but probably a sign of ignorance, indoctrination, and quite possibly stupidity :P

Scaredgirl

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Re: Bethlehem, virgins and Jesus. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33826.msg427770#msg427770
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2011, 12:32:48 pm »
People sometimes pick their fights carefully. If a topic is based on facts and not guessing, and is difficult or impossible to "win", it just gets ignored. That's one of the annoying things about internet discussions. If real life when you ask something fomr someone, it's much more difficult to dodge the question.


The movie Zeitgeist makes some interesting points about the character Jesus. It suggest that the Jesus most likely never even existed, and gives some solid evidence to back it up. The theory is that Jesus was just this fictional image of a "perfect human" used basically as a teaching tool. Instead of directly telling people how they should behave, they tell fictional stories where this "perfect human" acts like people should act, and everyone should just copy him. I would imagine that this kind of a trick was very powerful thousands of years ago. People need heroes and idols, and who is a better idol than Jesus?

What I find really interesting is the fact that during the time Jesus supposedly lived, and many years after his death, not a single historian wrote a single word about him. I would imagine that if there was a person who walked on water, cured the blind and resurrected, someone might actually write about him! It was only hundreds of years later that someone suddenly started to write about Jesus. In my mind this is the #1 most compelling evidence that Jesus most likely never even existed.

One other strong argument was the fact that there are dozens of other religions that have their own "Jesus", each of them doing exactly the same things as Jesus supposedly did: virgin birth, resurrection, etc. This suggests that Jesus was nothing more than a combination of myths and stories passed from one generation to the next, and used in many different religions.

Others might disagree but it makes sense to me.

Artois

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Re: Bethlehem, virgins and Jesus. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33826.msg427816#msg427816
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2011, 03:26:05 pm »
Thanks Scaredgirl, I liked your post!

However, I was under the impression that Jesus did exist, or rather quite a few Jesus, and the biblical version is an amalgamation of many Jesus' with a few super powers thrown in for effect to sway the simple-minded into believing in christianity rather than one of the many other equally available religions of the time?

Offline maverixk

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Re: Bethlehem, virgins and Jesus. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33826.msg429939#msg429939
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2011, 03:25:55 am »
People sometimes pick their fights carefully. If a topic is based on facts and not guessing, and is difficult or impossible to "win", it just gets ignored. That's one of the annoying things about internet discussions. If real life when you ask something fomr someone, it's much more difficult to dodge the question.


The movie Zeitgeist makes some interesting points about the character Jesus. It suggest that the Jesus most likely never even existed, and gives some solid evidence to back it up. The theory is that Jesus was just this fictional image of a "perfect human" used basically as a teaching tool. Instead of directly telling people how they should behave, they tell fictional stories where this "perfect human" acts like people should act, and everyone should just copy him. I would imagine that this kind of a trick was very powerful thousands of years ago. People need heroes and idols, and who is a better idol than Jesus?

What I find really interesting is the fact that during the time Jesus supposedly lived, and many years after his death, not a single historian wrote a single word about him. I would imagine that if there was a person who walked on water, cured the blind and resurrected, someone might actually write about him! It was only hundreds of years later that someone suddenly started to write about Jesus. In my mind this is the #1 most compelling evidence that Jesus most likely never even existed.

One other strong argument was the fact that there are dozens of other religions that have their own "Jesus", each of them doing exactly the same things as Jesus supposedly did: virgin birth, resurrection, etc. This suggests that Jesus was nothing more than a combination of myths and stories passed from one generation to the next, and used in many different religions.

Others might disagree but it makes sense to me.
I must say, I know I'm not really adding to the conversation at all, but this single post is one of my favorites I have ever read. It's made me think and I over all just really like it. That is all.
"Are you ... comparing me to God? I mean, that's great, but just so you know, I've never made a tree." -House

Offline Helston

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Re: Bethlehem, virgins and Jesus. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33826.msg432316#msg432316
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 02:51:20 pm »
I'm not exactly a biblical scholar, but I did attend a lecture in my ancient civilisations course about the genesis of Christianity and do have a full basic religious education from high school:

Before I begin, a couple of things about the Bible: First of all, it is a collection of books decided upon by Roman meeting (of Church officials, government officials or both I'm not sure) several hundred years after the death of Jesus, and there were many other holy texts that may have been a part of it at the time. Secondly, everything must be interpreted before you can reach any true meaning. At face value, almost everything in it either contradicts with modern day ideas or virtues, contradicts something else in the Bible, or is merely a part of the story (person X went to town Y). The problem is that what the "correct" interpretation is can be very difficult to know thanks to the wide range of interpretations available, the limited evidence we can obtain through historical studies, and the ways in which it has been translated from language to language over time.

To your questions:
1. You're correct, Bethlehem is only mentioned in one book. This falls under the category of "contradictions something else in the Bible" and is either something you need to think about for yourself. I would encourage you speak to an actual religious scholar if you want more of an answer, probably even a priest.
2. There were actually two Roman censuses around this time, one shortly before and one shortly after 0CE. Both had a king Herod (I think it was Herod) ruling at the time, which is also mentioned in at least one of the books.
3. You're correct there, but there's nothing more I can add.
4. I can't help you here at all, sorry.

At the time of Jesus, there were a lot of miracle workers going around performing miracles, and there were many religions kicking around at the time, all with their devoted believers (which is funnily enough mirrored in Life of Brian's two radical groups of the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea).


Scaredgirl, I've also watched Zeitgeist, and it it is indeed a very interesting film. I heard at some point that the first few books of the Bible, or possible only Genesis, was written after the Jews fled Egypt as fiction in order to teach people about the nature of God, similar to the image of Jesus as a 'perfect human'. The problem with the way Zeitgeist presents the arguments about the many similarities of different religions is that it fails to mention all the interactions these religions had over the years, and I *think* that *some* of its facts or connections with the other religions are outright untrue, but can't recall any specific examples. Some common Christian ideas, such as the standard definition of Hell and the devil, were taken directly from other religions in order to help convert people, but are re-interpreted back out of existence upon further inspection (Catholicism: Hell isn't a place of eternal suffering, but rather afterlife without God. Jesus went to Hell when he died, but this is usually omitted because of the standard idea of Hell). Unfortunately, Zeitgeist is the only place I have seen any discussion of these ideas in relation to Jesus, so I find it difficult to form solid opinions on the matters.
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Offline UTAlan

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Re: Bethlehem, virgins and Jesus. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33826.msg432346#msg432346
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 04:01:55 pm »
1.  The reference to giving birth in Bethlehem is I believe only mentioned in just one Book.
3, actually. Both Matthew 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%202:1&version=NIV) and Luke 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%202:4&version=NIV) mention it while telling the story of Christ's birth, but the prophecy of this occurs in the Old Testament:

Quote
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
-Micah 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=micah%205:2&version=NIV)

2.  There is absolutely no record of any Roman census at this time, in Israel.
This is not true, as Helston mentioned.

Quote
Augustus is known to have taken a census of Roman citizens at least three times, in 28 BC, 8 BC, and 14.
(Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius#cite_ref-12))

3.  Further, there is no evidence that a census requires anyone to travel to the town of their birth.
While there is no evidence that this census in particular had this requirement, a Roman census document, dated 104 A.D., has been discovered in Egypt, in which citizens were specifically commanded to return to their original homes for the census.
(This is cited in Maier, Fullness, 4, who is quoting from A. H. M. Jones, ed., A History of Rome through the Fifth Century (New York: Harper and Row, 1970), II, 256f. Source (http://www.orlutheran.com/html/census.html).)


4.  To fulfill the Messiah prophecy, the child must be of the line of david(?), and therefore I assume Joseph rather than God has be the father?
Regarding Matthew's genealogy of Jesus (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%201:1-17&version=NIV) through Joseph's line:

Quote
Christian faith regards Jesus as having been born of a virgin, Mary, and, consequently, as not having natural human father. Nevertheless, he is considered to be a prince of Judah as though Mary's husband Joseph were in fact his father.
(Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line#Genealogy_of_Jesus))
However, even if you don't want to concede this, Jesus was a direct descendent of David through Mary. In Luke (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%203:23-38&version=NIV), the genealogy is given through Mary. Luke calls Joseph the son of Heli, but the Jerusalem Talmud indicates that Mary was the daughter of Heli (Haggigah, Book 77, 4). Joseph was, then, the son-in-law of Heli.


The problem is that what the "correct" interpretation is can be very difficult to know thanks to the wide range of interpretations available, the limited evidence we can obtain through historical studies, and the ways in which it has been translated from language to language over time.
The many translations of the bible are not a problem when it comes to knowing the original intent of the authors. We still have the bible in its original language(s) (Hebrew for OT, Greek for NT), which means we can translate directly into English, or learn Hebrew & Greek to attempt to determine the most accurate interpretation of what the author intended.

 

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