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Offline doublecross

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg418792#msg418792
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2011, 11:57:49 pm »
Fair enough.
Easier is not the right word.

I would also like to make the point that I am always willing to be convinced by a sufficiently powerful argument. If someone would like to try and convince me that religion is correct, I will listen to the argument with an open mind.


Returning to the issue of word choice, it is hard to convey the sense of what I mean. I will admit that there are many cases when the religious path is certainly more difficult than the secular path.

Convenient isn't necessarily the right word either, but it fits better than easy did.


The Behavioral Psychologist, Skinner, set up a series of experiments where he put pigeons in a box with a lever and a food dispenser.

In some cases, the food would be dispensed when the pigeon performed a certain behavior, and the pigeons quickly learned the appropriate behavior, even if it was quite complex.

Interestingly, he rigged a few boxes to randomly give out food, completely unconnected to the pigeons actions.  The pigeons also developed complex behaviors.   Several scientists have joked that these pigeons had discovered religion.  Eager to make sense of their world, they noticed an initial pattern where some behavior happened to be met with the random food reward. The quickly concluded that there was some causal link, and kept trying until they were again 'proven right'. Slowly, they would add to their ritual, continuing to add things until one change would be randomly rewarded, at which point, they concluded that they had caused the food again.


I bring this up because in my mind it is similar to what I believe happened with religion. In any human society, especially one in a less academically advanced day and age is infinitely more likely to come up with a seemingly plausible anecdotal explanation for the unexplained events in the world before the apply enough scientific rigor to actually come up with what is actually going on. Even if the real answer ends up being easier in the long run then whatever the first explanation was, the first explanation is easier to originally come up with, and thus is more convenient.


It is a long road towards finding scientific truth, and anecdotal explanations are available immediately.
In the ancient Greek society, storytellers would invent myths for any unexplained event, and these were immediately incorporated into the religion, and believed, passed down through oral tradition.

Religious explanations are more readily available, and thus are the preferred option to the many who would rather cling to any artificial light than to continue searching until one finds the actual sun.


I would again like to stress that if you disagree, and feel like you have a good counter-argument, I will gladly hear it, and discuss it with you. I wouldn't be a scientist if I was unwilling to be proven wrong; being open to better explanations is at the heart of science.


Note: Deism still conflicts with Science. Just because there are those that are willing to believe in a deity and not abandon science doesn't mean that the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. People believe things that partially contradict each other all the time.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg418810#msg418810
« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2011, 12:22:46 am »
Doublecross makes a good point about the dangers of not applying scientific rigor to discover the subset of knowledge obtainable through science. While this is not only a religious problem it has riddled religions in the past. Many still carry legacies of that time.

Note: Beliefs that are not both related to the same topic cannot contradict. My belief you are human cannot contradict my belief that immoral killing is immoral. Claims of Deism and Science do not (according to my limited google/wiki fu) overlap.
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Offline doublecross

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg418811#msg418811
« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2011, 12:30:24 am »
Unless I am mistaken, central to most if not all versions of Deism, the Universe started with a Deity that has since ceased all interaction with the world.
I still say that the existence of such an entity would conflict with known physics, and, even if non-contradictory, would still require some form of proof. In cases like this, really the burden of proof should have to fall on religion; it is a logical leap to say that this Deity that has no effect on anything anymore exists just because none can prove otherwise.


I agree about your point about morals; science would not provide moral truth (unless one takes a purely pragmatic view of morality, in which case Science could theoretically calculate the actions with the most public utility, given sufficient data and computational power).

However, Deism claims that the Universe was created by a Deity whose has had no interaction with the world since it's creation, and this conflicts with known science. It violates conservation laws, as well as any existing notions about the possible forces and types of substance that can exist.

Furthermore, unless one considers this Deity to be a spirit [and thus one entity] as opposed to some sort of composite structure [as is everything else with any complexity to speak of], then the complexity required for a deity able to make the world is even more complex than the world itself, and thus even less likely to spontaneously exist than the world is.
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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg418834#msg418834
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2011, 01:21:36 am »
A non contradictory conflict? I do not understand what you mean.

Deism makes no categorical claim for how a Deity created. The first cause of cause of the cause of the Big Bang might have been a Deity. This may have followed conservation laws. Physics tends to make positive claims. Negative claims are not falsifiable.

Beyond that you make many appeals to probability which are not fallacious but fail to convince everyone.

Sidenote: I am not a Deist.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg419741#msg419741
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2011, 06:00:50 am »
Christianity and Islam have had much political influence. Politics tends to corrupt what it touches. If it is the non religious influences that are the major contributor to immoralities observed, then one would predict that a less political Religion or even denomination would have a much lower amount of immorality observed even after taking duration and scale into account. Buddhism is of similar scale but has had much less political influence. I do not recall any major examples of immorality tied to Buddhism. However you (or anyone else in this thread) might know of a counterexample to my prediction (from Buddhism or another Religion).
One of the times Buddhism did have political influence this happened.
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Offline maverixkTopic starter

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg419805#msg419805
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2011, 11:47:14 am »
I would just like to say, and not that I think you(doublecross&OldTrees) are confused, have the wrong idea here, etc. that my purpose for this thread was not to prove or disprove religion, but merely to say that simple belief in religion is not a bad thing. Not necessarily that it's a good thing, simply that it's not a bad thing.

There are plenty of examples of religion being used for bad things, but you can give me a thousand examples like that, but if I find one example that shows religion not being used for destruction, immorality, etc(and there are plenty) then I believe that helps prove my point more than it does the counterargument to mine.(feel free to correct me there) What I am trying to say is, yes, religion is certainly an excellent tool when you're trying to cause death or destruction, but also when trying to cause hope and life. It's a tool to be used differently by each individual person. It is no more inherently bad than a gun, hammer, or other tool.
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Offline darkrobe

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg419826#msg419826
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2011, 01:10:48 pm »
Begs the question though. Should we regulate religion like we regulate guns, hammers, or any other tool that can be used for destructive ends? :) just to take this discussion in a semi related direction.

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg419828#msg419828
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2011, 01:19:10 pm »
It is no more inherently bad than a gun, hammer, or other tool.
I don't see regular people having automatic weapons as a "tool". The fact that guns (or atomic bombs) are not "inherently bad", does not change the fact that they are highly dangerous when put to wrong hands. The way you use guns and hammer is the same sentence, makes me think that you might not be aware of the global statistics on gun related deaths vs. hammer related deaths each year.

I understand that religion can be used for good, but the fact that it can so easily be used for terrible things, makes it very dangerous. I personally think that incidents like 9/11 would never have happened if not for religion. There is a limit on how many crazy people you can find who are willing to do suicide attacks, but when you use religious brainwashing, it's relatively easy to convert regular people to do these acts.

The fact that religion can be used for good, does not mean we should ignore the potential danger of it.

And it's not like we couldn't help people without religions. You don't really need a higher power to feed people or give them shelter. You don't need religions for helping people with mental disorders either. In fact, all the good work that different religions do could easily be achieved using other, less supernatural, means. I think those methods would actually work better because they teach people personal responsibility which is some of the most important things a person can learn.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg419886#msg419886
« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2011, 04:56:54 pm »
I can think of many secular reasons that people would willingly be martyrs (thats what they thought they were). In fact all the reasons to be a martyr deal with Morality which is not unique to Religious or Secular thought.

I'm sorry but I do not see how any system that emphasizes Morality would fail to teach personal responsibility to the moral agents. Personal responsibility is not increased due to natural or supernatural explanations.
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Offline maverixkTopic starter

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Re: Belief in Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29110.msg420072#msg420072
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2011, 10:34:18 pm »
Ok, I realize that using guns and hammers in the same sentence that way didn't carry my point in the way I wanted it.
My point here isn't that Religion shouldn't be regulated, or it's wrong, or you shouldn't believe in it. My point is that belief in it isn't inherently dangerous. Sure it can be used in a dangerous way, but the type of person that it affects in the ways you're describing, Scaredgirl, are the type of people who are easily manipulated(generally speaking, of course). And therefore are already likely to be manipulated to perform similar acts, religion just happened to be the tool used. (I cringe at using the word tool now, but it still fits.)

Just because it has been used dangerously in the past, and I definitely agree that Religion has been horrible for many, many, many people in human history, doesn't mean that belief in it is inherently dangerous or bad.
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