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Re: Fact Vs Theory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31821.msg414724#msg414724
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2011, 11:46:41 am »
Sure, but we're not talking history here, we're talking definitions.  To argue that theory is the same as a fact (is that what you're doing?  I can't tell because you haven't outright disagreed with my main point, yet you keep hedging), whether theories are often shown false or not, would be dishonest enough to open the door for science to become less rigorous.  Science relies on the idea that theories are subject to revision or even rejection.  This is not to say we throw out theories on a daily basis - just that we have to be willing to if it comes to that.

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Re: Fact Vs Theory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31821.msg414733#msg414733
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2011, 12:08:55 pm »
Sure, but we're not talking history here, we're talking definitions.  To argue that theory is the same as a fact (is that what you're doing?  I can't tell because you haven't outright disagreed with my main point, yet you keep hedging), whether theories are often shown false or not, would be dishonest enough to open the door for science to become less rigorous.  Science relies on the idea that theories are subject to revision or even rejection.  This is not to say we throw out theories on a daily basis - just that we have to be willing to if it comes to that.
thats because i tend not to argue main points and instead focus on specifics i disagree with.  ive noticed that annoying other people on this board as well, but i prefer because while its extremely difficult to get someone to change a belief theyve held for a long time, you can get them to refine it by arguing against some of the weaker support points.  it also allows me to flip back and forth between "sides" of a discussion when i see wrong points on both sides.

yes we have to be willing to "throw out" theories if they are outright show to be wrong, like Phlogiston was (of course i have to wonder what scientific support there was for it in the first place) and in fact the chance to be proven wrong is part of the definition of a theory.  what tends to happen is refinement or replacement though.  many theories have so much science that has been based on them, that even if they are shown to be "wrong" as in they dont apply in some variety of situations, it doesnt mean that the science that has since been based on them does not work.  facts have been proven wrong too, even if that makes them by defintion not facts after the fact, it doesnt change the fact that one point it was considered a fact and was proven wrong (wow thats a lot of "facts")  therefore, calling something a fact does not give it any more veracity than calling something a theory.
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Re: Fact Vs Theory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31821.msg414770#msg414770
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2011, 02:13:00 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

Facts are True. Things that are claimed to be facts are often not. The error is in the claim.
Then we, as fallible human beings, never have facts, by your understanding. We have only claims of facts, which may turn out to be false. The high level of skepticism you show in other discussions must also be applied to "facts."

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Re: Fact Vs Theory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31821.msg414808#msg414808
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2011, 03:36:43 pm »
lets try a different tack.  ;D

on the wikipedia link that oldtrees posted, we have the following statement.
Quote
A fact (derived from the Latin Factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiabilty, that is whether it can be shown to correspond to experience.
in comparison the test of a statement of theory is falsification, a more rigorous test, because theory must always be improved to resemble truth, while once a fact is verified it is considered true. Thus what you deem to be a lacking or failing in theories that they can be proved false, is actually a strength they have over facts in the search for truth

The statement "Swans are white" can be identified as a statement of fact, or a statement of theory. if taken as a fact, the only requirement is that it be verified that swans are white. while for everyday life this is enough, in science that is not enough. because in science nothing can be proved true, only false. and when stated as a theory, science would look for cases where swans are not white, and indeed there exist swans that are not white, but black.

Thus in the search for truth, a statement of fact will fall short of a statement of theory. because one will be accepted as true, while the other will not and will lead to science that brings about more discoveries and more truth.


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Re: Fact Vs Theory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31821.msg414817#msg414817
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2011, 03:47:25 pm »
thats because i tend not to argue main points and instead focus on specifics i disagree with.  ive noticed that annoying other people on this board as well, but i prefer because while its extremely difficult to get someone to change a belief theyve held for a long time, you can get them to refine it by arguing against some of the weaker support points.  it also allows me to flip back and forth between "sides" of a discussion when i see wrong points on both sides.
lol, i like to have people argue their entire belief. because normally when people are arguing the entire issue you can identify issues in both arguments. So I like to pick a side and argue it out. even if it it comes to the point where im playing devils advocate and arguing something i dont actually hold as a belief. :)

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Re: Fact Vs Theory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31821.msg414849#msg414849
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2011, 04:31:49 pm »
Sorry if I miss anything. You guys exploded when I wasn't looking.

A Theory is an explanatory belief that attempts to state a Fact.
No.  A theory is an explanatory belief that can be used to explain phenomenon or make hypothesis, which may or may not be Facts.

Saying Fact > Theory is like saying Tree > Rain Forest.  A rain forest is a collection of trees, as well as soil in which trees strive, an environment in which trees an grow, animals that eat fruits and help spread seeds around so that new trees can be found, etc.
When the explanation is In Fact true it is a Fact.

lets try a different tack.  ;D

on the wikipedia link that oldtrees posted, we have the following statement.
Quote
A fact (derived from the Latin Factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiabilty, that is whether it can be shown to correspond to experience.
in comparison the test of a statement of theory is falsification, a more rigorous test, because theory must always be improved to resemble truth, while once a fact is verified it is considered true. Thus what you deem to be a lacking or failing in theories that they can be proved false, is actually a strength they have over facts in the search for truth

The statement "Swans are white" can be identified as a statement of fact, or a statement of theory. if taken as a fact, the only requirement is that it be verified that swans are white. while for everyday life this is enough, in science that is not enough. because in science nothing can be proved true, only false. and when stated as a theory, science would look for cases where swans are not white, and indeed there exist swans that are not white, but black.

Thus in the search for truth, a statement of fact will fall short of a statement of theory. because one will be accepted as true, while the other will not and will lead to science that brings about more discoveries and more truth.
People do not make "statements of theory" (describing the theory they claim) in the same manner as they make "statements of facts" (claiming something to be a fact).
Facts are by definition True, however many statements purporting to be fact are not. We also tend to hold lower standards for most statements purporting to be facts. In this manner I would rank the category of claims that something is a fact below general theories in terms of accuracy.

Note: Swans are White would require verification that swans exist, some swans are white AND no non white swan exists. Obviously the statement purporting to be Fact was inaccurate because not all Swans are White.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

Facts are True. Things that are claimed to be facts are often not. The error is in the claim.
Then we, as fallible human beings, never have facts, by your understanding. We have only claims of facts, which may turn out to be false. The high level of skepticism you show in other discussions must also be applied to "facts."
I would submit that a True Belief would qualify as a Fact despite the believer not having the Knowledge that their belief is a Fact. However you are correct that my level of skepticism would doubt beliefs claimed to be Facts.


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In summary of my position:
A Statement of Fact is a descriptive belief that attempts to state a Fact.
A Theory is an explanatory belief that attempts to state a Fact.
A Scientific Theory is a Theory that meets certain criteria imposed to ensure greater accuracy of the category.
A Fact is something that is True.
Therefore in terms of accuracy the categories are listed: Fact > Scientific Theory > General Theory > Statement of Fact > General Belief

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