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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171051#msg171051
« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2010, 05:01:41 am »
Wait, what? So if I don't care about your own wellbeing, or place my wellbeing above yours, then I'm a sociopath? I thought that was just a more extreme case of selfishness.

...I might have to change my definition of evil.
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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171063#msg171063
« Reply #73 on: October 05, 2010, 05:36:37 am »
If you don't care about the well-being of anyone else, then yes, you're a sociopath. But that doesn't automatically make you selfish, either- for example, I could not give a damn about anyone's well-being, and so watch someone getting mugged (to use your previous example), but also not encourage the mugging. It'd be like "let's see... fish, milk... oh, someone's getting mugged... cheese, ice...", not "I don't want to get hurt! I'd better keep out of it!"
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Offline pepokish

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171066#msg171066
« Reply #74 on: October 05, 2010, 05:48:33 am »
I've done too much facepalming throughout this thread to participate without nerdraging, but I wanted to add a bit along the lines of Memorystick's reply.

Being a sociopath means that you also wouldn't care if the mugging victim was your frail old grandmother.  If you had bothered to click the link I'd posted and read through even one measly page of info (it's even written in simple english for you), you'd see quite plainly that selfishness does not equate evilness, because selfishness stems from limited brain capacity and basic instinct. 

Once you start looking into how the human brain actually works, terms like 'good' and 'evil' start to seem silly and childish.

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171093#msg171093
« Reply #75 on: October 05, 2010, 07:10:57 am »
OK, I admit that I didn't read your link when I first saw it. Now that I've read it, it kind of makes sense. However, a true selfish person would only care for himself, and he would not hesitate to sacrifice the wellbeing of someone inside his "monkeysphere" in order to benefit himself.

Hmm. Parental love and sexual attraction are programmed to ensure the species doesn't die out; that's the only rational justification for "love" I can think of. Perhaps this love applies to everyone in your monkeysphere, but not to anyone outside it. Perhaps humans are only capable of displaying altruism to those inside their monkeyspheres.

Oh well, that settles it then. Humans will destroy each other because their monkeyspheres are too small. The only form of society that will work is a hive mind that is solely controlled by one single consciousness.
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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171114#msg171114
« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2010, 07:44:35 am »
Oh well, that settles it then. Humans will destroy each other because their monkeyspheres are too small. The only form of society that will work is a hive mind that is solely controlled by one single consciousness.
People that believe strongly about an idea/ideal (like religions, political ideology, rationality ...) are often interested in the wellbeing of the idea even at the expense of the wellbeing of their body. This leads to much larger monkeyspheres and the incentive to absorb everyone into their monkeysphere. [some Christians are perfect examples of this]

If the size of normal monkeyspheres is too small then those will die out and be replaced by this less prominent type.
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Offline Glitch

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171204#msg171204
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2010, 01:34:55 pm »
@Gl1tch: Let's say I beat you up and take your money. Not because I desperately needed money, but simply because I wanted the money; I have zero regards for your own personal wellbeing. Does that make me evil?
Feeling no compassion for other human beings is being a sociopath, and it's a birth disorder.  I can't blame you for how you were born, can I?  It makes you a miscreant, but certainly not evil.
In my opinion, there is no such thing as evil.

Also: Hitler and Stalin were evil.
Uh, these are extremely contradictory statements, care to explain?
Like I said, evil people are those with extremely contradicting opinions from your own, to the point where it cannot be explained by logic.  I can understand a lot of what Hitler did, but the Holocaust?  I'm certain he had reasoning behind it, but as I don't understand yet why he'd do such an atrocious thing, I simply use the word evil to describe it.  Same with Stalin.  That guy sent his own country members into losing battles simply to be meat shields, because, well... he could.  I'm certain he had sound reasoning behind it (tired of being invaded, didn't have many other resources), but as I disagree, I consider him evil.

Offline Korugar

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171207#msg171207
« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2010, 01:38:22 pm »
My point is that if there is no such thing as evil, how can you use it to describe someone?

P.S. Hitler thought he was helping the human race evolve by killing off the lowest stage(Jews). He planned to move on to others after he had finished "purging".

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171216#msg171216
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2010, 01:56:54 pm »
(reply to topic, not anything that has been said)
in REALITY, everyone is good. right and wrong are nothing more than opinion, not fact. far from it actually. the crusades back in its day was looked at as a GREAT good by the christian community. today they are seen as a very bad thing by most. this is just a case in point. hitler truely believed what he was doing was for the greater good, but most see him as an insane super villain (if you will)
my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard and they're like "its better than yours" damn right, its better than yours! i can teach you but i'd have to charge!

Offline EvaRia

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171238#msg171238
« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2010, 02:52:12 pm »
I think the general concensus right now is something like:

If you are innately evil, then you must have been born evil, because your evil is innate and there is not much you can do about it.
But since you were born evil, and you can't change how you were born, being born evil is not being an evil person.

So I guess now it's like:
Humans are innately evil, but being born evil means you aren't actually innately evil,
Paradox anyone?

IMO, whether someone is evil or not depends on the person were talking about, since evil is a relative term.
If someone admits that they are evil, and does not try to stop themselves from doing evil, or even does what they think is evil because they want to or because they can, then they are evil, regardless of what they are doing.
If I thought posting in this thread was evil for example, and I admitted I was evil, then I would be evil because I would be doing something that I consider evil without trying to stop myself.
People like Hitler may have done some really horrible things, but if they thought that they were doing it for the greater good, so you can't really call them evil for it.

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171569#msg171569
« Reply #81 on: October 06, 2010, 12:50:25 am »
People that believe strongly about an idea/ideal (like religions, political ideology, rationality ...) are often interested in the wellbeing of the idea even at the expense of the wellbeing of their body. This leads to much larger monkeyspheres and the incentive to absorb everyone into their monkeysphere. [some Christians are perfect examples of this]

If the size of normal monkeyspheres is too small then those will die out and be replaced by this less prominent type.
Hm, does that mean humans will eventually evolve into some sort of collective overmind? If we don't destroy ourselves first, of course.
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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171793#msg171793
« Reply #82 on: October 06, 2010, 01:31:01 pm »
No, it means that people over time would evolve to be propagators of an idea instead of selfish. There still would be competing ideas. (Also no actual hivemind consiousnesses would form) For a quick model you could look at the political parties in a parliamentary system.

The idea is that this version of humanity would evolve to value an idea more than they value themselves. People who are or are willing to be martyrs for their cause. But willing to be martyrs in more ways than the conventional sense. (ie they are willing to sacrifice their own wellbeing to promote, spread and defend the idea)
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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg172528#msg172528
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2010, 09:48:56 pm »
I'm pretty much going to echo what Demagog and a few others said on the first page.  There is no universal good or evil.  In nature, we are just another animal, and animals have instincts, not morality.  Do you call a mosquito evil for biting you, or simply accept that that is part of their nature?  However, generally speaking, a human being cannot exist independently.  As Hobbes' famously put it, in nature--although we have complete freedom--we are at war with every other person, and our existence is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short".  Therefore, we organize into societies.  When you choose to participate in a society, you implicitly agree to give up some of your natural freedoms in exchange for the benefits of a society (a "social contract").  For [an oversimplified] example, I can no longer just beat you up and take your stuff, but in exchange I receive some measure of protection from you beating me up and taking my stuff.  This contract includes everything from obeying written law, to observing social mores (i.e., what is perceived as good and evil).  What you are calling "evil" are mostly just people expressing natural freedoms beyond what is considered appropriate for society.

Also, the "Monkeysphere philosophy" is essentially the ethical system laid out in Ayn Rand's objectivism.  A fancy name for it is ethical egoism, which is to say the closer I regard something (in terms of importance, not physical distance), the more value I place on it.  For those things I consider too far away from me, I do not actively work for or against them.  I simply let them be.  Operating any other way would be impossible.  Are you going to cry when a family member dies?  Yes.  Are you going to cry because someone died in China and they were also a human?  No, because someone is always dying somewhere and you would never be able to stop crying.  You have to limit what you allow to affect you, and choose what you consider important.  It's not selfishness, it's just the fact we are an imperfect animal with limited capacities.

Reading what you are writing reminds me of a letter Camus wrote to a friend (who had recently joined the Nazi movement in WWII--no, I'm not comparing you to a Nazi. :P):
Quote
"You never believed in the meaning of this world, and you therefore deduced the idea that everything was equivalent and that good and evil could be defined according to one's wishes. You supposed that in the absence of any human or divine code the only values were those of the animal world--in other words, violence and cunning. Hence you concluded that man was negligible and that his soul could be killed, that in the maddest of histories the only pursuit for the individual was the adventure of power and his only morality, the realism of conquests. And, to tell the truth, I, believing I thought as you did, saw no valid argument to answer you except a fierce love of justice which, after all, seemed to me as unreasonable as the most sudden passion.

Where lay the difference? Simply that you... readily accepted despair and I never yielded to it. Simply that you saw the injustice of our condition to the point of being willing to add to it, whereas it seemed to me that man must exalt justice in order to fight against eternal injustice, create happiness in order to protect against the universe of unhappiness. Because you turned your despair into intoxication, because you freed yourself from it by making a principle of it, you were willing to destroy man's works and to fight him in order to add to his basic misery. Meanwhile, refusing to accept that despair and that tortured world, I merely wanted men to rediscover their solidarity in order to wage war against their revolting fate.

As you see, from the same principle we derived quite different codes...you chose injustice and sided with the gods.

I, on the contrary, chose justice in order to remain faithful to the world. I continue to believe that this world has no ultimate meaning. But I know that something in it has a meaning and that is man, because he is the only creature to insist on having one. The world has at least the truth of man, and our task is to provide its justification against fate itself. And it has no justification but man; hence he must be saved if we want to save the idea we have of life. With your scornful smile you will ask me: what do you mean by saving man? And with all my being I shout to you that I mean not mutilating him and yet giving a chance to the justice that man alone can conceive."

Last, and off topic, if you truly like physics, don't let anyone talk you out of it.  It's an amazing subject that I think has more potential than almost any other.  If you don't mind me asking, why don't your parents want you going into it? 


 

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