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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170153#msg170153
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2010, 01:16:56 am »
looks like you are tired of the disussion you have started here, bloodshadow.
No, no, no, no. PLEASE don't argue about the definition of evil. That isn't the point of this thread. As I've added in the first post, when talking about "evil" please assume that evil is selfishness, greed, and the desire to hurt others for your own gain.
(...)
so you just found the ultimate definition of evil and everyone has to agree with you to keep discussing?
so you wont listen of any argument of me, if i not agree with you in this definition?

then this isnt about a discussion, its about a ratification of your preset opinion.
The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss "what is evil". The purpose of this thread is to discuss "are humans innately selfish and greedy" and "does altruism exist". I believe that selfishness and greed will bring forth the end of humanity.

Quote
As a child, I'm certain I used violence more than once.  Humans have evolved to use violence to get what they want.

The difference?  I was scolded, and I've never hit anyone again.  How is that the kids fault?
An innately aggressive child would hit others more than an innately peaceful child. If scolded, the peaceful child would no longer hit anyone again, but the aggressive child would hit others when his parents are not looking.

@Terroking: I've said this once before. I didn't start this thread to get psychological help, so most of your post is off-topic.

Quote
"On their own, humans are not naturally good, and not naturally evil. Just human."
My response is this: Humans are more selfish and greedy than they're altruistic. Thus, they will eventually destroy each other.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline EvaRia

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170156#msg170156
« Reply #61 on: October 04, 2010, 01:25:58 am »
It seems you have a very established "Humans are innately evil."
Some people disagree.
The thread has turned into a debate that's based on opinion, because it's hard to prove anything.
Nobody wants to argue.
With that said BS, why don't you let everyone voice what their opinion is without countering every single one?
Nobody is going to agree on anything anyways, so there's barely reason to argue about it.
This is my opinion, you can counter it if you will, but I'm not going to argue with you.

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170176#msg170176
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2010, 02:00:43 am »
OK, fine.

@everyone: In your opinion, what makes a person evil? Are humans innately evil based on your opinion?
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170187#msg170187
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2010, 02:29:15 am »
First I would like to define some categories/terms

Morally Impermissable or Morally Prohibited
Morally Permissible
Morally Praiseworthy

Morally Prohibited is that which we Ought not to do.
Morally Permissible is that which we are morally allowed to do (ie not Morally Prohibited)
Morally Praiseworthy is going above and beyond our moral obligation due to our moral prohibitions.

Next I would like to point out the Ought implies Can. Ie something can be neither required of you nor praiseworthy for you to do if it is not possible to do. (However you may only be required to try and fail to do something.) Likewise something cannot be Morally Prohibited if it is impossible not to do it.


Now to address the terms of Bloodshadow's interest.

Self Interest is the desire to pursue one's own interests.

Now if someone believes that altruism is right and thus is Morally Praiseworthy then their self interest is the pursuit and practice of altruism. So self interest cannot always be immoral.

Now selfishness. Selfishness has different definitions based upon the person defining it. My definition is
Selfishness is the degree to which one is concerned with promoting their own wellbeing instead of promoting the wellbeing of others.

Now with this definition if any amount of selfishness was immoral or Morally Prohibited then we all would be obligated regardless of the actions of others to give all of ourselves to others. (our time, our vital organs, our flesh as food and our leftovers like bones and skin as raw materials for shelters.)

I do not agree that we have the above obligations. (which is obvious due to I am still living) So some amount of selfishness is Morally Permissible.

Now Greed. Greed likewise has differing definitions. My definition is
Greed is concerning oneself with amassing wealth to a foolish degree instead of pursuing other matters typically by favoring one type of wealth massively over all others. (most common is coinage over relationships)
Wealth is the value people have for things, ideas, experiences, accomplishments, relationships...

Now concerning oneself with amassing wealth is not always a foolish pursuit. After all many would agree that families and friendships are good things. What makes it sometimes foolish is if one seeks a poor sampling of types of wealth. One who seeks coinage and money at the expense of good times with friends and family is often thought of a frugal and thrifty if not done in excess. But if it is done in excess (scrooge) then you can see why it is termed foolish.

But is foolishness cause for declaring something morally prohibited? I would not think that foolishness would be morally prohibited. So if Greed is morally prohibited it is prohibited for another reason not conveyed by my definition. Maybe your definition would be more enlightening.

Edited to add more.

As to my personal beliefs on morality.

I believe that we all have certain possible obligations to fulfill and certain praiseworthy actions made available to us. I know that some humans are interested primarily with searching for and following the obligations and fulfilling the praiseworthy opportunities. I also know that some humans have things that they find more interesting then seeking to know their obligations.

So from that believe I see many humans accidentally break obligations through ignorance or seize praiseworthy opportunities through ignorance. I see a few seek and seek and seek hopefully the process moves their actions closer towards accidentally obeying the obligations than toward breaking them.

So can humans be innately moral or immoral? Yes.
Are they? No because they do not all do the same things so the majority both accidentally break obligations and seize praiseworthy opportunities.
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Offline Glitch

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170841#msg170841
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2010, 11:47:32 pm »
OK, fine.

@everyone: In your opinion, what makes a person evil? Are humans innately evil based on your opinion?
In my opinion, there is no such thing as evil.  (Although I make special exceptions for certain people on really bad days.  Also: Hitler and Stalin were evil.  Anywho...)

There are only misunderstood contradictory decisions of such large magnitude, one side cannot conceive of a logical argument behind the other, and assumes something fundamentally wrong with their opponent.

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170889#msg170889
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2010, 12:29:30 am »
@Gl1tch: Let's say I beat you up and take your money. Not because I desperately needed money, but simply because I wanted the money; I have zero regards for your own personal wellbeing. Does that make me evil?
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170893#msg170893
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2010, 12:35:37 am »
@Gl1tch: Let's say I beat you up and take your money. Not because I desperately needed money, but simply because I wanted the money; I have zero regards for your own personal wellbeing. Does that make me evil?
it makes you a sociopath.

Offline Korugar

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170904#msg170904
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2010, 12:42:49 am »
In my opinion, there is no such thing as evil.

Also: Hitler and Stalin were evil.
Uh, these are extremely contradictory statements, care to explain?

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170906#msg170906
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2010, 12:45:18 am »
In my opinion, there is no such thing as evil.

Also: Hitler and Stalin were evil.
Uh, these are extremely contradictory statements, care to explain?
Sounds like irony to me

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170910#msg170910
« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2010, 12:49:13 am »
In my opinion, there is no such thing as evil.

Also: Hitler and Stalin were evil.
Uh, these are extremely contradictory statements, care to explain?
Sounds like irony to me
Yes, like being tolerant to everyone...

except *insert group here*

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg170988#msg170988
« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2010, 02:37:00 am »
@Gl1tch: Let's say I beat you up and take your money. Not because I desperately needed money, but simply because I wanted the money; I have zero regards for your own personal wellbeing. Does that make me evil?
it makes you a sociopath.
So selfishness = sociopathy = mental illness?
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Are humans innately good or evil? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12949.msg171037#msg171037
« Reply #71 on: October 05, 2010, 04:30:22 am »
@Gl1tch: Let's say I beat you up and take your money. Not because I desperately needed money, but simply because I wanted the money; I have zero regards for your own personal wellbeing. Does that make me evil?
it makes you a sociopath.
So selfishness = sociopathy = mental illness?
Not entirely- the highlighted part does, but selfishness in and of itself =/= sociopathy

 

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