Are humans innately good or evil?

[Bloodshadow]

The thief secretly wishes he could give his money away and be good, and the nun secretly wishes she could hoard her money and be rich.  People act not on how they are, but how they think they're supposed to be.

It's the intention that matters, because we are creatures of the mind instead of flesh.

So, when you ask "Are humans inherently good or evil," I ask you what those terms mean.

Really, I'm tired of debating what good and evil truly are. In my opinion, evil is selfishness plus greed. Thus, when I ask whether humans are innately good or evil, I ask if they're innately greedy and selfish. Ultimately, this is a question about whether altruism exists or not.

[truddy02]

Really, I'm tired of debating what good and evil truly are. In my opinion, evil is selfishness plus greed. Thus, when I ask whether humans are innately good or evil, I ask if they're innately greedy and selfish. Ultimately, this is a question about whether altruism exists or not.

If this is your question, then yes people are innately greedy and selfish.  Being greedy and selfish means you survive and pass on your genes to future generations.  Altruism is a strange thing because there is something in people that makes them feel good when they help other people and since people want to feel good, they help other people.  If helping people made you feel like crap, nobody would do it.  So the good feeling people get from helping people seems to be innate but what really causes it?  This I don't know and is another difficult question.  Also being greedy and selfish can cause a lot of good things.  Because people are greedy and selfish people start businesses and give people jobs, people invent things that make other peoples lives better, etc.  So I guess this is kind of a cop out saying people are mostly selfish and greedy but this isn't necessarily bad and that there is something in people that can cause people to be seemingly altruistic because they selfishly want to feel good about themselves.

[Glitch]

The thief secretly wishes he could give his money away and be good, and the nun secretly wishes she could hoard her money and be rich.  People act not on how they are, but how they think they're supposed to be.

It's the intention that matters, because we are creatures of the mind instead of flesh.

So, when you ask "Are humans inherently good or evil," I ask you what those terms mean.

Really, I'm tired of debating what good and evil truly are. In my opinion, evil is selfishness plus greed. Thus, when I ask whether humans are innately good or evil, I ask if they're innately greedy and selfish. Ultimately, this is a question about whether altruism exists or not.

How is being selfishness and greedy evil?  Everyone secretly wants to be selfish and evil.  And everyone wants to be selfless and good.  The difference isn't who you are as a person, but who you think you should be.  I don't give money to homeless people because I was taught not to, even though I really wish I could.  Does that make me evil?

[Bloodshadow]

If you're selfish and greedy enough to hurt people for your own gain, then you're evil.

[Kuroaitou]

I'm probably going to throw myself into a topic that I potentially will get chewed out in, but to me, I personally want to believe that humans are innately good. Since this conversation seems to have driven towards more about defining the difference between good and evil (which to me seems to already be established), I chose to get right back to the question in hand. ^^;

Deep down, everyone has imperfections. But despite these flaws, mankind has proven to have small fragments of hope and morality inside of them, regardless of who they are. Even those who commit crimes or have severe flaws in their character have small glimpses of another side of them that I refuse to ignore.

A gang-member can still have a softer side and sense of loyalty towards his family (related by blood or group), often going to extreme lengths to either serve or protect them, while holding a sense of moral code to keep them by their side (and likewise, be protected by them in return). A drug-user/trafficker can still have amazing talents and an incredible sense of compassion and kindness towards others, with the ability to inspire and enlighten others in a (non-physiological) sense by what they say and what they believe in. I've even met alcoholics who were incredibly honest and organized, and had a duty to work hard and love their families unconditionally, even if their addiction had to be rectified.



Everyone has the potential to swing one way or the other, but I want to believe that people are good. Pure, unfiltered evil seems so rare and promoted in fiction nowadays that I can barely believe in it. Yes, the real world is harsh, but even then, I've seen small sparks inside those I had prejudice against that I feel ashamed to have claimed they were downright bad to the bone.


I guess what I'm saying is; it's really easy to see a bowl of clear, purified water darkened by a drop of black ink. But no one ever realizes how much of a bowl of ink is actually water until they take the time to filter out the two.

(Sorry for interrupting. Please feel free to argue at each other about definitions. *glances at BS/Gl1tch/everyone else* >_>)

[Bloodshadow]

No, no, no, no. PLEASE don't argue about the definition of evil. That isn't the point of this thread. As I've added in the first post, when talking about "evil" please assume that evil is selfishness, greed, and the desire to hurt others for your own gain.

Kuroaitou, melancholic as I am, I cannot deny the spark of goodness in humanity. However, the human race is still screwed, because we're more evil than we're good. I don't think the spark of goodness will save us when we finally exhaust our natural resources, and a nuclear war breaks out...

Sure, put a droplet of ink in water, the water is darkened but it's not pure ink. However, if the ink is poisonous, then the darkened water still kills.

[Ryli]

I don't think the spark of goodness will save us when we finally exhaust our natural resources, and a nuclear war breaks out...

Sure, put a droplet of ink in water, the water is darkened but it's not pure ink. However, if the ink is poisonous, then the darkened water still kills.

I agree with many things on both sides of the argument, but this bit from Bloodshadow is vital to the argument as a whole, and is ultimately my opinion on this too.

[Glitch]

If you're selfish and greedy enough to hurt people for your own gain, then you're evil.

That's fine.  But this thread is about being /innately/ good or evil. no person was born good, no person was born evil.  We chose, among our peers, who would be good and evil, and they fit the bill.  I was on the bus the other day, and this blue collar family was riding across from me, with two kids.  A baby, and someone just about school age.  The older kid had a bag of candy.  And when he went for the candy in the bag, his dad yelled at him and went back to ignoring him.  But when the father looked away, the kid managed to eat a piece of candy.  His father found out and yelled at him, so the kid hit his dad.  But instead of getting mad, he play fought the kid.

I knew, right then and there, what that kid was going to be like in school.  He's going to take what he wants, and when he doesn't get it, he'll fight.

Does that make him evil?  Because of what he learned on a busride?

No.  He's not innately evil, he was taught evil.  And years from now, he's going to regret it, just like the rest of us.

[Bloodshadow]

No.  He's not innately evil, he was taught evil.  And years from now, he's going to regret it, just like the rest of us.

I disagree. If the kid is not innately... let's say... "aggressive", he would not hit his father and use force to get what he wants. I believe that behavioral patterns like this are innate, not taught by parents.

My whole point is, humans are more evil than they're good, and I'm absolutely disgusted with that. We're gonna destroy ourselves eventually, and I hate the fact that there's not a damn thing I can do about it.

[hrmmm]

looks like you are tired of the disussion you have started here, bloodshadow.

No, no, no, no. PLEASE don't argue about the definition of evil. That isn't the point of this thread. As I've added in the first post, when talking about "evil" please assume that evil is selfishness, greed, and the desire to hurt others for your own gain.
(...)

so you just found the ultimate definition of evil and everyone has to agree with you to keep discussing?
so you wont listen of any argument of me, if i not agree with you in this definition?

then this isnt about a discussion, its about a ratification of your preset opinion.

[Glitch]

No.  He's not innately evil, he was taught evil.  And years from now, he's going to regret it, just like the rest of us.

I disagree. If the kid is not innately... let's say... "aggressive", he would not hit his father and use force to get what he wants. I believe that behavioral patterns like this are innate, not taught by parents.

My whole point is, humans are more evil than they're good, and I'm absolutely disgusted with that. We're gonna destroy ourselves eventually, and I hate the fact that there's not a damn thing I can do about it.

As a child, I'm certain I used violence more than once.  Humans have evolved to use violence to get what they want.

The difference?  I was scolded, and I've never hit anyone again.  How is that the kids fault?

[Terroking]

I would do it for no other reason than that it is the right thing.

What is "the right thing"? It's all subjective. Everything we do are motivated by self interest. For me, I do the "right thing" because I fear that if I don't, I will be punished by some invisible force. It's all ingrained into me during my childhood, when I was punished if I made mistakes. My entire personality is built on this fear, the fear of punishment if I don't do something that I was taught to be "right".

As for the mugger thing, it wasn't really a "theory". It was just my extremely pessimistic and negative view of the world. Right now it seems like everything and everyone is trying to hurt me. And while I may forget, I do not forgive, anything, ever. I still remember SG calling me an idea thief, Purity_Riot calling me a control freak and hypocrite, Demagog calling me a gloating attention-whore, GirlsGeneration calling me irresponsible, etc. As long as I remember them, I am forever tormented by those memories, even if they were things of the past and no longer apply to my current self. I know I'm being extremely narrow-minded, but I've tried and could not think of any solutions other than restarting my entire life altogether.

MMn. There are a few pages between this and my current post, but I felt that I should get this out here anyway:

#1 (It's all subjective): Everything metaphysical is subjective. That's not something you can say to demote something.

#2 (Everything we do are motivated by self interest): "The only thing that is absolute about the human race is this quote." Again, true. There are far too many and too varied an amount of humans for anything else to be absolute.

#3 (My entire personality is built on this fear): All I can tell you here is that you should change that, and no one but you is going to be able to do it. A nice way to do this is to simply ignore punishments (Turn the other cheek, as it were) until their effects go away. Eventually the punisher will stop doing it simply because it is futile (Usually. Again, no absolutes.)

#4 (everything and everyone is trying to hurt me): Absolutes again.

#5 (And while I may forget, I do not forgive, anything, ever): Not a nice way to go through life. However, the converse of this (What I try to do) does work extremely effectively. If you never forgive someone, then you shouldn't expect them to do anything "Nice" to you.

#6 (Could not think of any solutions other than restarting my entire life altogether): Re: #5. Forgive and hope for the best. You need to give people a chance to do the right thing before you dismiss them as incapable of it.

Gli1tch said this nicely, but I'll paraphrase it here:

"On their own, humans are not naturally good, and not naturally evil. Just human."