Are humans innately good or evil?

[Bloodshadow]

Even if you suddenly decided that all humans were innately evil, nothing would change.
[snip]
Face it. Just because you alone suddenly sees things a little bit differently doesn't mean that the world is going to be any different.

Of course the world isn't going to be any different. Humanity is doomed to destroy itself, and there is nothing we can do to change that.

It would be like if your friend bought and paid for a new dress, and was convinced she looked good in it. Would you be the one telling her what she really looks like? Then, as a result, she could reveal something to you, perhaps about you, which you would have been content not knowing for the rest of your life.

First, I wouldn't be friends with someone who only about his/her superficial appearance, but that's not the point. I would tell her my opinion, albeit in a non-offensive way. If she tells me something that I'd rather not know, but do it in a non-offensive way, then I wouldn't blame anything on her.

And think of it like this: If someone were getting mugged, and the mugger had a gun, what would you do?

That's not my point. What I meant was, if I was getting mugged, and a random stranger had a gun, he would not use the gun to save me. He would either stand by and watch, or use the gun to mug me himself. To me, all people are either indifferent, or hostile.

Altruism does not exist in humans. Everything we do are influenced by self-interest, and many people would sacrifice the well-being of others to benefit themselves.

[Korugar]

"Are humans innately good or evil?"

Evil. That much BS and I agree on, and that's about it. See, I believe that we're created by God, instead of us being animals who have evolved a higher intelligence. Something that comes along with that creation is a conscience. You can disagree with me all you want, Bloodshadow, but the facts remain. Some people do good without expecting anything in return.

Your theory that if someone were mugging you, and that no one would stop the mugger, given the chance is incorrect. Take myself for example(I know I'm not the only one, but it's easiest to speak for myself). If I were to see you getting mugged, I would try to stop it. Is this self serving in any way? Not that I can think of. You can't say that I would only protect those who would do the same for me(protecting my own interests) as I have no reason to believe you would return the favor, or those whom I like(no offense, but I don't particularly like you). I would do it for no other reason than that it is the right thing.

[Bloodshadow]

I would do it for no other reason than that it is the right thing.

What is "the right thing"? It's all subjective. Everything we do are motivated by self interest. For me, I do the "right thing" because I fear that if I don't, I will be punished by some invisible force. It's all ingrained into me during my childhood, when I was punished if I made mistakes. My entire personality is built on this fear, the fear of punishment if I don't do something that I was taught to be "right".

As for the mugger thing, it wasn't really a "theory". It was just my extremely pessimistic and negative view of the world. Right now it seems like everything and everyone is trying to hurt me. And while I may forget, I do not forgive, anything, ever. I still remember SG calling me an idea thief, Purity_Riot calling me a control freak and hypocrite, Demagog calling me a gloating attention-whore, GirlsGeneration calling me irresponsible, etc. As long as I remember them, I am forever tormented by those memories, even if they were things of the past and no longer apply to my current self. I know I'm being extremely narrow-minded, but I've tried and could not think of any solutions other than restarting my entire life altogether.

[EvaRia]

You CAN be someone else.
I've realized, if you think enough about who yourself, you will find out that you have an entirely different character who you would rather be.
Different lifestyle, thought process, personality, likes and dislikes, even down to name, family, world, life.

The other you. Not the actual you, but the you that you long for most.
The life you would live if you could die, restart, and leave everything behind.
Find that person. Live that life in your imagination. Make it the REAL you.

[pepokish]

This reminds me of the Monkeysphere philosophy (http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html). 

Realistically, attempting to cram the entirety of human civilization into one of two fairly vague categories is insanely preposterous.  But it's easy if you lose sight of the fact that humanity is made up of individual humans, and it's not a collective machine that you can simply toss under one label or another.

[Memorystick]

Off-topic: nice link, pepokish. I learned some new stuff and found some other stuff I'd already theorized ^_^
On-topic: the

But it's easy if you lose sight of the fact that humanity is made up of individual humans, and it's not a collective machine that you can simply toss under one label or another.

part is what I was talking about earlier, when I said that I think that humans are both "good" and "evil"- just different balances for different people
(I'm of the mind that balance is very important)

[Zeru]

What is "the right thing"? It's all subjective.

Let's define Evil as gaining benefit over the loss of another person. And Good as giving benefit to another person.
If you have objective evidence that your actions benefit another person, the "right thing" is subjective no more.

Everything we do are motivated by self interest.

Really, everything? How about the thing we are motivated be other means that self interested. Or things that we need no motivation for?

For me, I do the "right thing" because I fear that if I don't, I will be punished by some invisible force. It's all ingrained into me during my childhood, when I was punished if I made mistakes. My entire personality is built on this fear, the fear of punishment if I don't do something that I was taught to be "right".

Just because you are incapable of altruism doesn't mean that every other person in the planet thinks that way.

[Daytripper]

Again, that is very pessimistic, Bloodshadow. And I believe incorrect. The vast majority of the population consists of people just doing their thing, not hurting anyone for no reason. Society is more individualistic now. But... we all enjoy the protection of the police, we have education, clean water etc. Things we paid for together. You may say that is not ''goodness.'' I say it is the same process, just a bit less strong. Regardless we were all taught to help society. What you get back for it may not be tangible, but we are so used to it we do it anyway.

It does not matter if you're an atheist or a Christian. The atheist might say: Help another man, and you may help society.

The Christian may say: Do good onto others, but do not take pride in your good deeds. A good deed for the sake of the good deed is what Jesus taught! While I'm an (agnostic) atheist you can see this makes a lot of sense. There are no good deeds of the type ''Haha, look how good I am and look how much money I have got.'' That is not a good deed at all and it goes against the teachings of Christianity. So, a good deed is not for faith. It is for the person you do good to. I have to agree with you, a Christian not understanding this did not read very well.

Now, allow me to take another trip... You say you remember all the times people insulted you. What a burden this must be. Forgive, and let it be, is the Christian way. Not Christian? Well, your attitude is not very Zen either. Insults? They are only words that slide off like water from the back of a duck. Why use your energy on this resentment? Your own negativity will only bring yourself down. Release yourself. Be positive, start with a clean slate, and you are free. It is not as bad as it seems. Talk to those people again some time, but with a positive and constructive attitude.

I am really shocked you say no one would help you if you got mugged. That is, even assuming the power balance is in favour of the helper. That is just nonsense. Come on man... If two kids were fighting and it got out of hand, what do you do? Right, you pick one up.   

It takes a lot of courage to step up when the odds are bad. People may be watching, but they might be in shock as well. In today's society we do not live in the same packs. A group of strangers has no natural leader, which makes it a bit hard to know what to do. ''Hey, if I help, do those others have my back?'' You don't know that. In the confusion a mugger can rob you easily. You need to remember how intimidating it is exactly to be exposed to violence. I've seen it a couple of times, usually bar fights but sometimes in the streets during daylight. If you see that for the first time without any training, you..are petrified. Just petrified. It helps to shout loudly at the offenders to mobilize the crowd. I have not done that often, only after I had been drinking myself.     

[hrmmm]

(...)
Realistically, attempting to cram the entirety of human civilization into one of two fairly vague categories is insanely preposterous.  But it's easy if you lose sight of the fact that humanity is made up of individual humans, and it's not a collective machine that you can simply toss under one label or another.

we are not a collective machine, you are right.
but we have, and we build, collective agreements.
eg. laws, money, religions etc.
 
in fact that means we, the individuals of a society, agree to some ethic standarts.
this ethic standarts can varie huge, if you look at different societys.
the concept of good and evil is such a ethic standart (mostly used by occident societys), that we define by ourself.

lets take an (wierd) example: cannibalism
say a native tribe has the tradition to eat members of other tribes after they get killed in a conflict. or they eat parts of dead people from the own tribe to honour the ancestors. both traditions have the goal to gain strenght for your tribe and/or appease the ghosts of the departed.

for the people of this tribe, eating people is a good thing. not eating peaple can be evil (you might provoke the rage of some ghosts or gods and bring harm over the whole tribe).

a better question, as judging the whole mankind in good or evil, would be:
what are my (individual) ethic standarts, are they different from other people i know, and when why?
where did this standarts come from?

actually most part of the world have set some ethic standarts in the Human Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights). if you take a closer look, how this inimitable standarts where set, you might gain a idea how tricky the ethic standarts can be.

[Bloodshadow]

Just because you are incapable of altruism doesn't mean that every other person in the planet thinks that way.

Whoa, whoa, don't get the wrong idea here...

I actually believe that we should do things to benefit humanity as a whole, instead of only trying to benefit ourselves. That's the reason why I'm so disgusted with all the greed, selfishness, and corruption in the world. Humanity will destroy itself, but its destruction is entirely avoidable if we all just stop being selfish and greedy.

I would like to be altruistic, but I cannot afford to be truly selfless because the moment I do so, someone more selfish than me will stab me in the back. I would be altruistic if only I could trust someone, but unfortunately almost every person I've known has hurt me one way or another. I used to trust my friend Iris, but apparently she decided to repay the favor by cutting me out of her life altogether over a simple misunderstanding, despite knowing that she was the only person I really trusted. If this problem isn't resolved by the time I graduate, then I'll know for a fact that trusting someone will only bring me more pain.

You called me a selfish hypocrite. Thanks for that. Another insult that I'll never be able to forgive.

Oh yeah, I didn't have a particularly harsh childhood, if that's what you guys are thinking. I just got punished often for making mistakes, and bullied a lot by my supposed "friends". I didn't spend my early years in poverty or anything like that.

Summary of all my arguments and ranting in this thread:

If humans are innately and biologically evil, then humanity will eventually destroy itself. I would very much like to believe that humans are innately good, but my past experiences tell me otherwise.

Off topic: Anyone knows any good ways to blow off some steam? I feel like I'm about to snap. I need to make up with my friend soon, because I really need to talk to someone... (No, not my parents; someone I could actually trust)

[Memorystick]

I just got punished often for making mistakes, and bullied a lot by my supposed "friends".

Sounds like you need to be a little more careful with how you choose your friends- a true friend will stand by you no matter what (that's my philosophy).

...but unfortunately almost every person I've known has hurt me one way or another.

I'd suggest getting out and meeting new people- not all people are alike, and generalizing  that everyone is like those you know isn't likely to win over new friends.

[Bloodshadow]

Sounds like you need to be a little more careful with how you choose your friends- a true friend will stand by you no matter what (that's my philosophy).

I was like, what, seven or something. Let's just say that I vehemently despise my past childhood self with a vengeance.

I'd suggest getting out and meeting new people

When I'm relaxed and not nervous, I can put on a mask that makes me look friendly and amiable, so I can probably say that I'm not THAT bad at socializing. However, even if I'm to meet new people, I still can't trust any of them.

People, I didn't start this thread to get psychological help. While they may be helpful, posts like that are technically off-topic.