Are humans innately good or evil?

[Daytripper]

I think those are strange ideas...

If we take a look at the animal kingdom again: Yes, a female mantis might eat the male after mating. It is just feeding when you have the chance. Babies cost a lot of fuel. That is not a problem, because the male already served his purpose. We may say the mantis has no sense of ''good'' or ''evil.''

Now, considering both the humans and animals, it offers some type of evolutionary advantage to work together. It is a common convention not to hurt those of the same species unless it is really needed. Think about it: If we were not evolutionary programmed to help each other and to not kill each other, the species would cease to exist.

So, if human society reached a state of anarchy and we were to behave like animals, this is not an issue. Are all animals extinct? No they are not. No matter what happens, natural selection is self correcting. Packs will form again and humans will care for each other, because that is the way to survive. The ones that do not obey this rule get weeded out easily. In time, society could do well again.

To conclude, I do not see how the gloomy state you describe naturally follows from what we know.

[Bloodshadow]

Packs will form again and humans will care for each other, because that is the way to survive.

I'm not so sure about this. What if there are not enough resources (e.g. food and water) to sustain the entire "pack"? Won't humans kill their "pack mates" in order to sustain themselves?

My point is, I simply don't see where "innate goodness" comes from. Why would you bother to unconditionally help someone when you cannot benefit from the deed in any way? And you're not even sure that person won't stab you in the back after you help him/her.

Do not speak to me about "faith". It is naivety at its worst.

[Daytripper]

This ''innate goodness,'' that is, doing what is best for the community or the pack, comes from millions of years of evolution. Humans are capable of quite a bit, even in harsh times. Remember the men stuck in Russia after a shipwreck? They did not turn on each other. Only after some died, they ate off the bodies. But...you are talking about extreme circumstances. They would all have died eventually anyway, if there had been no rescue. If circumctances are that bad, the group is lost anyway. So, in history people with a tendency to undermine the pack mostly died, while the followers lived and became more numerous. That's how we ended up with today's society.

People die of starvation every day. If there is not enough food, is it better to share it evenly so everybody will die slowly? Practice shows that is not how it goes. If there are not enough resources, some will die for whatever reason. If we were somehow taught to keep sharing the food to the bitter end, then maybe mankind would have become extinct. In harsh times, some are going to have to die and a small group is going to survive. That doesn't make it evil.

Last example... Did we A) kill the mammoths until they were all gone or B) did we fight each other and became extinct? Answer A! is correct! And I might add, it is not something we would be proud of today.... Because to be ''moral'' is to hurt as many other species a possible while you keep as many humans as possible alive...

 

[Terroking]

I would be rather surprised if no one has said this already, but:

The only true word that describes the human race as a whole is indescribable. (Another is "human," but then I wouldn't really be telling you anything, now would I?)

While it may be true that there is a lot of corruption and greed in the world, and there are certainly a lot of bad people, the truth is that almost anywhere, only about 15 out of 100 people are really bad people, and generally close to 10 out of that 100 are good people. The rest are just average citizens. Not good; Not bad, just people.

This is, without a doubt, the best and most true argument that can be made.

[Bloodshadow]

only about 15 out of 100 people are really bad people, and generally close to 10 out of that 100 are good people. The rest are just average citizens. Not good; Not bad, just people.

I don't believe that. To me, there are only two types of people: those who would stand by and watch as I get mugged, and those who would mug me themselves. There is no true "goodness" in the world. I know, some people, me included, treat others the way s/he wants to be treated, but the reality is that being nice to others does not guarantee that they'll be nice to you. Doing good deeds purely for faith is the most naive thing in the world.

[Korugar]

I'm posting this to remind myself to post in the morning. I don't have time at the moment.

[DrunkDestroyer]

only about 15 out of 100 people are really bad people, and generally close to 10 out of that 100 are good people. The rest are just average citizens. Not good; Not bad, just people.

I don't believe that. To me, there are only two types of people: those who would stand by and watch as I get mugged, and those who would mug me themselves. There is no true "goodness" in the world. I know, some people, me included, treat others the way s/he wants to be treated, but the reality is that being nice to others does not guarantee that they'll be nice to you. Doing good deeds purely for faith is the most naive thing in the world.

Just one little thing. Most of the people on this forums (myself included) believe, and want to know that humans do good deeds regardless of whether it will be returned, naive or not. Maybe, just the act of giving is good enough. But to your point, "treat others the way you want to be treated", this is slightly hypocritical, as most of us on this forum (or maybe just me. And in that case, I'm sorry) believe that humans are good. And we want to believe that, and you are telling us that they are not, with untmost certainty.
It would be like if your friend bought and paid for a new dress, and was convinced she looked good in it. Would you be the one telling her what she really looks like? Then, as a result, she could reveal something to you, perhaps about you, which you would have been content  not knowing for the rest of your life.

In essense, if we (or maybe just I) was the second person, I could start disproving science, physics or whatever you believe in (there's not a lot of choices here  ). And I don't necessarily have to be right. But it's never pleasant to see someone you respect/ed say with utmost certainty that what you believe in is false.

[Terroking]

only about 15 out of 100 people are really bad people, and generally close to 10 out of that 100 are good people. The rest are just average citizens. Not good; Not bad, just people.

I don't believe that. To me, there are only two types of people: those who would stand by and watch as I get mugged, and those who would mug me themselves. There is no true "goodness" in the world. I know, some people, me included, treat others the way s/he wants to be treated, but the reality is that being nice to others does not guarantee that they'll be nice to you. Doing good deeds purely for faith is the most naive thing in the world.

Fine, don't believe it. However, I know this to be true, regardless of any and all arguments. The way we look at the world changes how we see it, Blood. Remember that when you're remarking on the half-empty glass. And goodness itself is defined by the people who do it, the same as "evil". And something to do that works oh so much better than treating people how they want to be treated, is treating them how they should be treated.

And think of it like this: If someone were getting mugged, and the mugger had a gun, what would you do? Don't blame other people for mistakes you would make yourself.

[Memorystick]

To be blunt, this sounds like a "see what you expect to see" sort of thing- bloodshadow's expecting to see evil,  so he sees that more than he  sees good. This doesn't mean that there's no good in the world, just that he's overlooking it in his depressed state.

PS: Distracted user is easily distracted >_>

[Ryli]

I wouldn't do anything unless I have to or if it benefits me in some way, but I wouldn't do something to intentionally harm someone. This is where difference of opinion plays a big part. Many people would look down on you for this, but why? For very few it would be because they want society to be happy and well off, but for many they take it personally. If someone mugged you you'd be angry that no one helped you. But many would happily stand there and watch it happen to someone else.

'It's not me doing it, it's not my problem' <--- This is probably the biggest problem in society, and yes I will admit that I am one of this majority. But is there really a way to fix this? Maybe, but look at the Quote again. This is why, if it is even possible nothing will ever happen about it.

[EvaRia]

Are humans innately good or evil?
It doesn't really matter.
Even if you suddenly decided that all humans were innately evil, nothing would change.
Even if you suddenly decided that all humans were innately good, nothing would change.
Face it. Just because you alone suddenly sees things a little bit differently doesn't mean that the world is going to be any different.

[Memorystick]

Are humans innately good or evil?
It doesn't really matter.
Even if you suddenly decided that all humans were innately evil, nothing would change.
Even if you suddenly decided that all humans were innately good, nothing would change.
Face it. Just because you alone suddenly sees things a little bit differently doesn't mean that the world is going to be any different.

This is true. However, just because it doesn't matter doesn't mean that humans won't ponder it- and in some ways, it's better to think about it, if only because things like this are fascinating. Of course, this is just my opinion, so... yeah...