*Author

Offline ColorlessGreen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 774
  • Reputation Power: 14
  • ColorlessGreen is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.ColorlessGreen is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1122639#msg1122639
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2014, 12:50:31 am »
I can tell you that last time voodoo decks were one of the cool things to farm FGs with, I was very much in favor of having a single cloak for the RT gods and other similar things. If you can manage to hold out as long as possible by stalling with BBs and whatnot, it's definitely completely possible (and not even very difficult) to play a doll combo and a cloak in the same turn, soak damage for three turns, and kill with TUs.

I'm not sure it'd be the way to go with this deck, though, since VDB is much faster than the pre-bravery voodoo farmers were so it's probably better to just cycle through more quick wins than to worry about boosting win rate while sacrificing speed by stalling out for burst damage.

Offline nolf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • nolf is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • New Forum-Account
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1122959#msg1122959
« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2014, 09:11:58 am »
Quote from: ColorlessGreen
I'm not sure it'd be the way to go with this deck, though, since VDB is much faster than the pre-bravery voodoo farmers were so it's probably better to just cycle through more quick wins than to worry about boosting win rate while sacrificing speed by stalling out for burst damage.

Yeah, a cloak wouldn't suit this deck. You don't have the quanta for it, it only helps with a few gods and the chances it will really help (you to win the game) aren't that high. You could probably increase the electrum/hour rate by auto quitting on more than the three gods recommended in the opening post. Like Lionheart, I had a game where the eternity took... an eternity (harhar) to come out, but even that didn't help and even stalling it didn't help because of his  crusaders, wins are highly unlikely. The same goes for Osiris, not only does he have rewinds, he also has catapults and momentum and shards of focus which can screw you with black holes... Also, as I already wrote, Octane, nigh impossible to beat. 

I currently play the SN version with one extra doll and one added nova, I subtracted one shard and one twin universe. This is a reaction to my findings, see an earlier post, that I too often didn't draw a doll in time. Now I have one more doll than gravity force, which is a bit of a waste. But it has two main advantages. For one, delaying the FGs weapon by playing only a doll and a BB, which buys more time. And being more easily able to make some room in my hand (by playing a doll/the dolls and a BB or two) to make better use of the shards. Minor detail: Simple dolls will be targeted with Eagle's Eye or drain life, damaging the FG just a bit more. Losing the 4th TU is acceptable, in most cases you only need two to finish the job. Less chance to copy an opponent's creature, but that's seldomly a winning strategy anyway.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 08:16:22 am by nolf »

Offline eaglgenes101Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1964
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 29
  • eaglgenes101 is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.eaglgenes101 is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.eaglgenes101 is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.eaglgenes101 is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.eaglgenes101 is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.
  • The rising all-'rounder of Elements
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124362#msg1124362
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2014, 08:27:55 pm »
With pen and paper I recorded 84 games against FGs using the original supernova version. I may not have played every game perfectly, but I did my best and Voodoo Bravery isn't that complicated (if you can do simple math in your head). I never quit early, just in case (in fact, I even tried the skip gods).

Here are the somewhat disappointing stats I managed to record:

FGs faced: 84
Wins: 30
Cards won: 6!
Losses: 54 (incl. 4 skips)

Losses due to not drawing a needed combo card before death:

no doll: 15
no SN: 4
no GF: 4
no Pend: 3

Akebono win 1 loss 1
Chaos Lord win 1 loss 2
Dark Matter SKIP 1
Decay win 1 loss 2
Destiny SKIP 2
Divine Glory win 1 loss 1
Dream Catcher
Elidnis win 2 loss 1
Eternal Phoenix win 0 loss 1
Ferox win 1 loss 3
Fire Queen win 1 (EM!) loss 3
Gemini win 2 loss 1
Graviton
Hecate win 0 loss 2
Hermes win 2 loss 4
Incarnate win 2 loss 5
Jezebel win 2 loss 1
Lionheart win 0 loss 1
Miracle win 2 loss 3
Morte win 3 loss 2
Neptune win 0 loss 3
Obliterator win 4 loss 1
Octane win 0 loss 5
Osiris win 0 loss 3
Paradox win 2 loss 1
Rainbow win 2 loss 0
Scorpio win 0 loss 2
Seism SKIP 1
Serket win 1 loss 2


So, obviously my biggest disappointment is: 30 wins and still only 6 bloody cards won on the spins!

Apart from that, the deck is cool, another great idea. Also fast and easy to use (if you can do a bit of maths in your head). But it is pretty fragile. The classification in the opening post declares some gods as being easy - well, in reality none are easy, because there is always the chance you simply won't draw a much needed card. Looking at the 15 out of 80 games (minus the skips) where I didn't draw a doll I'd probably want to include a third one in the future. Though that would increase the chance of not drawing one of the other cards.

Mind you, those stats don't even tell the whole story. Even drawing the doll or gravity force at the last moment wouldn't have saved me in some games (due to momentum, poison, etc). If I had instead recorded "not drawing a doll/GF in time to win"... well, that would pretty much account for all the losses, I guess. Apart from: Reverse time, Decay never playing the eclipse, Chaos Lord with an early discord keeping entropy below 2 the whole time (happened once), too much poison, too much direct damage (siphon life, etc) and of course too many momentumed creatures. My best win rate was vs Obliterator, but the one loss was due to all his creatures getting momentum.

Before I used the SN version I played the nova version for 54 games. 16 wins, 38 losses (incl. 5 skips) - and including an unfortunate run of 17 games with only losses and 2 skips. Here I at least won 6 cards from just those 16 wins. However, a generally lower win rate (16/54  = 29.6%, 30/84 = 35.7%). Here I didn't record whether cards came up in time, from memory: In a sense it is more stable, you are more likely to get a doll out in time (you have 3 instead of 2 dolls in the deck). However, it is often lacking in just a bit of earth quanta to play enough BBs. I could imagine that a mixture of novas and supernovas might make for better results (see Branden's post, he used 1 SN and 5 novas).

Oh, and I'd classify Octane as a skip. It's difficult enough to win using Voodoo Bravery without all those unstable gases. All my losses were resounding.


I notice a few holes in your tests:
Neptune: You lost every game. You shouldn't have. Send the doll out only with BB on it for neptune.
You also lost quite a bit against gods with burst damage. With those gods you need more than mental arithmetic. You also need to guess how much the damage is going to hurt. Usually, you should send out the doll only if it's combo'd.
My 3 game-modification principles:
1. If it ain't broke, don't wreck it.
2. Simple fixes for simple problems.
3. Remember to fill in the holes.

Offline nolf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • nolf is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • New Forum-Account
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124611#msg1124611
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2014, 09:59:59 am »
Cheers, mate. But I think I had it fairly much worked out by the time I recorded that data, because I had already played those >50 games with the nova version. As I wrote, I lost 26 games (more than half of the 50 losses, the other 4 were skips) because I never drew one of the necessary cards, not even if it had been too late. So for example Neptune, one loss was because I never drew a SN and one was because I didn't draw a doll.  Only the last loss was a "real game".

However, maybe I should have made that clearer, I still think it's a great deck and with my slight modifications I'm still using it to face the FGs and am happy with the success rate. Have been far more successful on the spins, too. So, obviously, 84 games is a pretty small sample. I will say again that I think the UEI and SSPH would increase if you add to the skip list. Octane would be my first choice, I have faced him another 10-ish times and lost them all. I think I still haven't beaten Osiris, either.

Offline the dictator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
  • Country: nl
  • Reputation Power: 17
  • the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124689#msg1124689
« Reply #88 on: February 04, 2014, 07:16:46 am »
This deck was one of the last decks I built before my hiatus, and while it's definitely very unstable, I really liked it, and still do.

That said, I noticed the same thing as you: it's very unstable, and hard to get the combo out. For that reason, in my personal version, I use 5 braveries and 3 dolls. I 'often' found myself with a hand filled with cards, including braveries, but no real desire to play them, because it would give me a high chance of locking my hard, and then ending having to discard a card. For that exact reason I included just an additional doll. Even if you don't have the full combo yet, against most gods you can safely play Doll + 1 BB, meaning you can easily clear your hand, even if you haven't draw all the cards necessary for the full combo: it also means you have more handspace, which means you can use your braveries easier, with less risk of having to discard.

That said, yes, you are right, easy doesn't mean cakewalk, 95%+ winrate, it means, nothing really tricky going on with this god, if the deck works like it should, and you use it correctly, you should be fine. I'm currently working on perfecting the procedures for the new false god study, but you are also right on the extending the skip list part, this is currently the order of PLAY priority produced by my spreadsheet (the most profitable, or rather, the one least profitable when being skipped, first, thus the ones best skipped last):
Divine Glory, Incarnate, Neptune, Jezebel, Obliterator, Akebono, Paradox, Serket, Decay, Miracle, Rainbow, Fire Queen, Scorpio, Gemini, Dream Catcher, Graviton ||| Eternal Phoenix, Elidnis, Morte, Hermes, Octane, Hecate, Lionheart, Osiris, Ferox, Chaos Lord, Dark Matter, Destiny, Seism.

As you can see, Seism, Destiny, Dark Matter and Chaos Lord are clear skips, but there are quite a few more (up to Eternal Phoenix), that also improve income when skipped, though I should add that playing EP, Elidnis, Morte, Hermes and Octane drops the UEI by less than 2% from the optimum, thus I would say you can play them without any notable effect on your UEI (and it's good for peoples mood/playing fun when the skip list isn't too long, another good reason to include such a threshold filter :)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 08:43:50 am by the dictator »
[18:28:55] Acsabi44: grinding is about pwning the AI as fast as possible
Back from a long break.
:water War Veteran - 4 times
Because inverted art is awesome - Looking for a tool for gather stats for arena, look no further

Offline nolf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • nolf is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • New Forum-Account
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124696#msg1124696
« Reply #89 on: February 04, 2014, 11:53:42 am »
Quote from: the dictator
That said, I noticed the same thing as you: it's very unstable, and hard to get the combo out. For that reason, in my personal version, I use 5 braveries and 3 dolls. I 'often' found myself with a hand filled with cards, including braveries, but no real desire to play them, because it would give me a high chance of locking my hard, and then ending having to discard a card. For that exact reason I included just an additional doll. Even if you don't have the full combo yet, against most gods you can safely play Doll + 1 BB, meaning you can easily clear your hand, even if you haven't draw all the cards necessary for the full combo: it also means you have more handspace, which means you can use your braveries easier, with less risk of having to discard.

Thank you for confirming this, exactly what I found.

Quote
As you can see, Seism, Destiny, Dark Matter and Chaos Lord are clear skips, but there are quite a few more (up to Eternal Phoenix), that also improve income when skipped, though I should add that playing EP, Elidnis, Morte, Hermes and Octane drops the UEI by less than 2% from the optimum, thus I would say you can play them without any notable effect on your UEI (and it's good for peoples mood/playing fun when the skip list isn't too long, another good reason to include such a threshold filter :)

Oh yeah, I forgot Chaos Lord. Could be mentioned in the opening post with the advice on FGs, he will use his druids on a combo'd doll. Great list, thank you! I agree that it's nice to keep the skip list to a minimum. I'm not a hard core grinder anyway, I actually enjoy playing the game. :)

Edit: I still just played Chaos Lord and got an EM victory, second ever with this deck. The first doll he mutated turned into a 17 attack dragon with its own mutation power! Nice! And then he created a singularity and it became all too easy. And after that success, I also went ahead and beat Dark Matter, ha!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 12:31:48 pm by nolf »

Offline Tsmuji

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Country: gb
  • Reputation Power: 2
  • Tsmuji is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124702#msg1124702
« Reply #90 on: February 04, 2014, 01:40:09 pm »
(God by god is only half finished, I'll complete it when I have more time later today hopefully, feel free to ask questions about what I have so far in the meantime)

I've used this deck pretty extensively (around 800 FG wins, so assuming the ~42%WR listed in the old FGei thread that means around 1,900 FG games, plus a fair few games in plat when I grew bored of the other plat grinders) and whilst I can understand the reasoning behind your list for the most part there's definitely some parts of the order I'd question. For the record the version I prefer is the nova version with 6 SoBr and 2 GForce. I've been observing the FG statistics threads for some time now and I appreciate your analysis is far more comprehensive than me going off memory but I figured asking can't hurt. Obviously I'm about to post a lot of strategies to certain gods that I feel aren't inherently obvious and in the least took me a lot of games to learn how to use correctly, for the sake of a comprehensive list I'll post basic ones too, I apologise if you have more experience with this than me and I come across as being somewhat condescending.

General Notes:

This one's more aimed at people who haven't played against FGs too often, I'd say it's worth making a note of grouping gods into 3 categories of those without weapons, those with weapons and those with both weapon and animates. If a god still has the potential to play a weapon I'll keep a BB in hand as long as possible to make sure its effects are nullified.

Saving BB for creatures with momentum can be a life saver, if you can afford to play 2 TUs your doll only needs 80 max HP best case scenario, if you can afford 3 then that drops to 60. Obviously these require the doll to have <13/10 HP left respectively so an extra BB on a doll to be safe is sometimes necessary, getting to used to the burst capabilities of each god is necessary to play this deck as well as possible.

Gods with the potential to instantly ruin your combo (I'm looking at you, rewind/mutation) can be beaten if you have a decent draw. The doll will not be targeted if you play it without BB, basically in inverse fashion to the doll targeting rules regarding ice bolt/siphon etc. If you can also manage to get out 2 dolls with BB the doll with higher HP is the one that will get targeted; this requires a near perfect draw but this has won me a few games I'd have otherwise lost, essentially having a bait doll with 80 HP and the GForce doll at 60 max HP and TUing it over and over at <10. I'll cover this in more depth for speciific gods lower down.

God by God
Spoiler for Hidden:

I apologise for some questionable yoda grammar at the start of some of these, I figured it'd be easier to read if I began each paragraph with the god's name.

Akebono is the 5th most profitable god to win against, granted at 6th in the list this isn't a long way from where it should be but considering Osiris and Octane are worth skipping I feel Akebono should be higher. If you wait for an overdriven creature to come out, ideally with momentum and TU it as often as you can you can reach some very fast, very reliable wins. Obviously Doll/GForce should be played to soak up as much damage as possible, then BBs should be saved as often as possible to deal with creatures that are momentum'd and overdriven after you've TU'd them. Once you have one big hitter on your side you can afford to delay all of the big hitters on Akebono's side and repeatedly TU your own. It's a rare occasion I find myself playing the normal strategy of the deck against Akebono now.

Chaos Lord's positioning I'd agree with, difficult win with not a lot of profit to be made from cards. Most people I've spoken to tend to have more issues than me, I don't skip this one although I wouldn't be overly surprised to see that it would be profitable if I did. For the most part provided it hasn't been buffed by Chaos Power or momentum a RoL will be targeted for mutation before a GForce doll will, I think there's a certain degree of randomness to this though. Saving BBs for use on druids is also a big help to improve winrate, but this is still a pretty nasty god.

Dark Matter as a skip I agree with, this one will never be profitable, momentum and BH is far too difficult.

Decay is a lot more likely to win against with the SN version I'd assume, the winrate and profit from extra cards isn't terrible for me but the length of each game is, with 2/60 eclipses in deck.

Destiny has too many counters to realistically win against often, I'd agree that's a skip.

Divine Glory is obviously the god of choice, biggest profit from card spins, the only possible issues are a hand clogged with too many of either MGs or animates but not both, and obviously Miracle has to be watched out for.

Dream Catcher's games I find to be pretty slow, combined with the occasional early BH coming out and the horrible spin rate I was surprised to see this so far above gods like EP, Ferox and Hermes.

Elidnis has pretty slow games and a nasty spin chance but pretty straightforward and reliable games, I was surprised to see this on the skip list.

Eternal Phoenix on the skip list seems wrong to me, very fast games, very nice spin chance, no weapon so you can afford to throw every BB out on a doll. I appreciate the damage can burst too fast for a mediocre draw to cope with dragons and fractal sometimes but I'd never consider this a skip, this is the one that motivated me to write this post.

Ferox I feel very similarly to EP about except without the awesome spin chance.

Fire Queen I'd agree with the placement of, very standard games with a decent WR and spin chance.

Gemini is another one to save BBs for the creatures, delaying the momentum'd spiders/massive dragons until the immortals come out improved my personal winrate drastically, having said all that I'd agree that it should be a little over the skip boundary.

Graviton is a surprise to me, having the deck of each god next to me as I write this and finding out there's only 3/6 unstoppables in the deck means I must have just had nasty luck here, again I'd probably agree with the placement though.

Hecate isn't the easiest win but again I'm surprised to see it on the skip list, there's a decent spin chance and a win rate I'd consider to be fairly good. It's a very situational tactic but if you haven't drawn a doll and you can afford to empty your hand slightly by throwing BB on opposing dolls you can bait a nightmare, I'm not entirely sure at what point the AI decides nightmare is worth playing though.

Hermes has a small amount of burst but the damage is predictable growth for the most part. The only issue I could see would be getting outrushed early, but the speed of these games is something that more than makes up for other negative factors for me. This is one of 2 gods I've managed a 4 turn win against, the other being Miracle. Once more, surprised to see on the skip list, especially next to Octane.

Incarnate I'd consider to be a relatively easy win, I'm just surprised it's so high up the list.

Jezebel I'd agree with, nice spin chance, easy wins for the most part unless gravy nymph comes out, although your towers getting stolen usually helps prevent that.

Offline the dictator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
  • Country: nl
  • Reputation Power: 17
  • the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124718#msg1124718
« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2014, 06:58:56 pm »
(God by god is only half finished, I'll complete it when I have more time later today hopefully, feel free to ask questions about what I have so far in the meantime)

I've used this deck pretty extensively (around 800 FG wins, so assuming the ~42%WR listed in the old FGei thread that means around 1,900 FG games, plus a fair few games in plat when I grew bored of the other plat grinders) and whilst I can understand the reasoning behind your list for the most part there's definitely some parts of the order I'd question. For the record the version I prefer is the nova version with 6 SoBr and 2 GForce. I've been observing the FG statistics threads for some time now and I appreciate your analysis is far more comprehensive than me going off memory but I figured asking can't hurt. Obviously I'm about to post a lot of strategies to certain gods that I feel aren't inherently obvious and in the least took me a lot of games to learn how to use correctly, for the sake of a comprehensive list I'll post basic ones too, I apologise if you have more experience with this than me and I come across as being somewhat condescending.

General Notes:

This one's more aimed at people who haven't played against FGs too often, I'd say it's worth making a note of grouping gods into 3 categories of those without weapons, those with weapons and those with both weapon and animates. If a god still has the potential to play a weapon I'll keep a BB in hand as long as possible to make sure its effects are nullified.

Saving BB for creatures with momentum can be a life saver, if you can afford to play 2 TUs your doll only needs 80 max HP best case scenario, if you can afford 3 then that drops to 60. Obviously these require the doll to have <13/10 HP left respectively so an extra BB on a doll to be safe is sometimes necessary, getting to used to the burst capabilities of each god is necessary to play this deck as well as possible.

Gods with the potential to instantly ruin your combo (I'm looking at you, rewind/mutation) can be beaten if you have a decent draw. The doll will not be targeted if you play it without BB, basically in inverse fashion to the doll targeting rules regarding ice bolt/siphon etc. If you can also manage to get out 2 dolls with BB the doll with higher HP is the one that will get targeted; this requires a near perfect draw but this has won me a few games I'd have otherwise lost, essentially having a bait doll with 80 HP and the GForce doll at 60 max HP and TUing it over and over at <10. I'll cover this in more depth for speciific gods lower down.This part I didn't know, but considering these are the gods furthest down the skiplist, I doubt it will safe them, unlike for example, the alternate play strategy for akebono (and same strategy can occasionally get you wins against obliterator and gemini)
In general I think you (and most other people), are underestimating the effect of a skip. For example, the PDials official skiplist is 4 or 5 gods only 'because you can win against the others with a lucky enough draw', it turns out the PDials skiplist as generated by the current formulae (but based on only 200 games played, so probably not the most stable results), holds 13! gods for optimal UEI of which 2 are in the unsecure part. Comments on your individual observations are in the spoiler, because even a deck that can win against all gods with equally good odds, is still going to have a skiplist, because losses are practically free compared to the high card spin rates of divine glory (for example).


God by God
Spoiler for Hidden:

I apologise for some questionable yoda grammar at the start of some of these, I figured it'd be easier to read if I began each paragraph with the god's name.

Akebono is the 5th most profitable god to win against, granted at 6th in the list this isn't a long way from where it should be but considering Osiris and Octane are worth skipping I feel Akebono should be higher. If you wait for an overdriven creature to come out, ideally with momentum and TU it as often as you can you can reach some very fast, very reliable wins. Obviously Doll/GForce should be played to soak up as much damage as possible, then BBs should be saved as often as possible to deal with creatures that are momentum'd and overdriven after you've TU'd them. Once you have one big hitter on your side you can afford to delay all of the big hitters on Akebono's side and repeatedly TU your own. It's a rare occasion I find myself playing the normal strategy of the deck against Akebono now. This is indeed exactly how you win games against Akebono, and while it's simple once you figure it out, it does require you to get the right cards even earlier, making it more draw dependent than a normal VDB win (which already is quite draw dependent). This also might be the one god where my personal mod of -1 bravery, +1 is actively hurting the winrate, considering the dolls themselves aren't what you are going for here, while a 6th bravery might help you get those early TUs/BBs.

Chaos Lord's positioning I'd agree with, difficult win with not a lot of profit to be made from cards. Most people I've spoken to tend to have more issues than me, I don't skip this one although I wouldn't be overly surprised to see that it would be profitable if I did. For the most part provided it hasn't been buffed by Chaos Power or momentum a RoL will be targeted for mutation before a GForce doll will, I think there's a certain degree of randomness to this though. Saving BBs for use on druids is also a big help to improve winrate, but this is still a pretty nasty god. While Chaos Lord is certainly possible (in fact, I have won at least 1 game against each god), and certainly more winnable than dark matter/destiny/seism, according to my data, it's deck composition really hurts the card spin rate, which means the income per won game is lower than for most gods.

Dark Matter as a skip I agree with, this one will never be profitable, momentum and BH is far too difficult.

Decay is a lot more likely to win against with the SN version I'd assume, the winrate and profit from extra cards isn't terrible for me but the length of each game is, with 2/60 eclipses in deck.Yes, the supernovae really help here, assuming you can secure the 2 entropy needed to play them, they make it a lot harder for decay to lock your quanta, meaning you have more time to wait for eclipse to show up.

Destiny has too many counters to realistically win against often, I'd agree that's a skip.

Divine Glory is obviously the god of choice, biggest profit from card spins, the only possible issues are a hand clogged with too many of either MGs or animates but not both, and obviously Miracle has to be watched out for.

Dream Catcher's games I find to be pretty slow, combined with the occasional early BH coming out and the horrible spin rate I was surprised to see this so far above gods like EP, Ferox and Hermes.While the games can be a chore, his really slow setup means you are much more likely to recover after a bad start, while Ferox, EP and Hermes all can rush quite will, meaning you will be dead before that recovery

Elidnis has pretty slow games and a nasty spin chance but pretty straightforward and reliable games, I was surprised to see this on the skip list.Elidnis, as well as EP are techically on the skip list, but they are also closest to the non-skip part, so close infact that the UEI when including both Elidnis and EP into the play part drops the UEI from the theoretical optimum 12377 to 12343. This is exactly the reason I implemented the 2% from optimum threshold check, while they are technically on the harsh version of the skiplist, they are so awefully close to the optimum when included that I would leave them out for all purposes (and same goes for morte, hermes and octane).

Eternal Phoenix on the skip list seems wrong to me, very fast games, very nice spin chance, no weapon so you can afford to throw every BB out on a doll. I appreciate the damage can burst too fast for a mediocre draw to cope with dragons and fractal sometimes but I'd never consider this a skip, this is the one that motivated me to write this post.See Elidnis

Ferox I feel very similarly to EP about except without the awesome spin chance.While I was expecting Ferox to be on the lower part of the list, I wasn't expecting him to end up this low in the play priority, even below Osiris and Lionheart. On second thought though, I can see why: Because of a large deck, your spin chances are low, and while he doesn't have any cards that can disrupt the combo, he has the fastest rush of all the gods (might also be part of the reason for EPs lower-than-expected rating). This means you need a near perfect starting hand to stop him before he gets going, ESPECIALLY because the Leaf dragon/RoL portion of his deck means he can provide lots of quanta fast, meaning the braveries are accelerating his rush even more, instead of what they do for most gods: fill up their hands until they can finally manage to collect enough quanta. Because of this, he might not seem very 'hard', but it really hurts the overal winrate (I went 5-19). Sidenote: I think Ferox gave me my first ever 3 TTL, and although I haven't been able to duplicate it as a theoretical exercise, it went as I said: the he had a perfect quanta flow (rustler + AdrenaRoL, and a few towers), and my braveries provided him with a bunch of hard hitters, meaning he had 8 creatures out on his second turn, including 2 dragons.

Fire Queen I'd agree with the placement of, very standard games with a decent WR and spin chance.

Gemini is another one to save BBs for the creatures, delaying the momentum'd spiders/massive dragons until the immortals come out improved my personal winrate drastically, having said all that I'd agree that it should be a little over the skip boundary.

Graviton is a surprise to me, having the deck of each god next to me as I write this and finding out there's only 3/6 unstoppables in the deck means I must have just had nasty luck here, again I'd probably agree with the placement though.Graviton is higher than I expected, but this one (and gemini), require a lot of experience, you need to decide early if you are going with the normal strategy (dolls+BBs+GPull+TUs) or if you are going with the akebono alternate strategy, and then stick to that decision, and hope you picked correctly (mostly based on the amount of 'early' momentums in play: 10 or 1 means you can usually get away with the normal strategy, while more means you have to switch. I usually find Graviton harder to play against than Gemini (because you there is no point in TUing the fireeaters when they are still low on attack, meaning you want him to grow the fireeaters a few times before you TU+BB them, which does mean they are going to get more damage in before that).

Hecate isn't the easiest win but again I'm surprised to see it on the skip list, there's a decent spin chance and a win rate I'd consider to be fairly good. It's a very situational tactic but if you haven't drawn a doll and you can afford to empty your hand slightly by throwing BB on opposing dolls you can bait a nightmare, I'm not entirely sure at what point the AI decides nightmare is worth playing though.The rating on this one is likely hurt by the rush potential, which means you require an above average draw, and on top of that, she can and will still hurt you after you have your doll combo in place (through rage pot and liquid shadow on her dolls), meaning you need a larger spare HP buffer than you need for Ferox or Elidnis, which means that, while the rush is (generally) slower than Ferox, you need the doll at about the same time, to keep some spare hp's.

Hermes has a small amount of burst but the damage is predictable growth for the most part. The only issue I could see would be getting outrushed early, but the speed of these games is something that more than makes up for other negative factors for me. This is one of 2 gods I've managed a 4 turn win against, the other being Miracle. Once more, surprised to see on the skip list, especially next to Octane.Yes, Hermes is another one where the rush/burst hurts the winrate. That said, it is only on the theoretical skiplist, like EP and Elidnis, with a UEI of 12260 for DG-Hermes, it's still within 2% of the theoretical optimum based on those numbers.

Incarnate I'd consider to be a relatively easy win, I'm just surprised it's so high up the list.Incarnate also has a special trick to it (you can occasionally pull the same trick against Morte): the more dolls you get out, the more infection they will load up, especially after Incarnate has played Eclipse, giving the dolls an attack value, increasing their priority for infect. Because of this alternate damage method, you are less reliant on drawing your GPs, because you can load up damage through alternate methods, and considering you have only 2 in the deck, that means you can win games here were that you would have lost against other gods for because of late/no draw of GP. Out of my 28 wins (9 losses), 2 were without ever playing GPull, just by getting enough poison loaded on the dolls to kill him. My personal record is 16 poison on Incarnate himself, which means at least 32 damage per turn, and more once you factor on TU's (which multiply the damage done to a doll, AND multiply the effect of the infection count on that doll, though they won't reapply the poison status). That said, this tactic might be better suitable for my Supernova version with 3 dolls, more and earlier dolls means you can load up more poison.

Jezebel I'd agree with, nice spin chance, easy wins for the most part unless gravy nymph comes out, although your towers getting stolen usually helps prevent that.Yes, gravy nymph and air nymph are the biggest risks here, but having your pendulums stolen helps to detract him from that. This might be another one where the nova/tower version has an advantage: aether nymphs have a substantially higher attack value compared to entropy nymphs, I occasionally end up worried by too little damage output, though I don't I have ever really lost by deckout.
[18:28:55] Acsabi44: grinding is about pwning the AI as fast as possible
Back from a long break.
:water War Veteran - 4 times
Because inverted art is awesome - Looking for a tool for gather stats for arena, look no further

Offline Tsmuji

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Country: gb
  • Reputation Power: 2
  • Tsmuji is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124723#msg1124723
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2014, 07:24:19 pm »
I'll probably finish the rest of the god by god more for others benefit than for yours, but your comments seem fair. It makes a lot more sense that some gods such as Elidnis are so close to the skip/non skip threshold. As for the benefit of skips, it seems I had sorely underestimated that, 13 for PDials seems like skips really do play a much larger part than I'd believed. Of course, some prefer WR over efficiency anyway and I personally usually like to maintain close to a 50%WR as often as possible but I believe you've just given me reason to forgo that if skips really are that effective.

Offline the dictator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1261
  • Country: nl
  • Reputation Power: 17
  • the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.the dictator is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124725#msg1124725
« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2014, 07:38:28 pm »
I'm currently working on writing down the actual procedures and explaining the formulae used, unless real life really kicks in everything should be up and running before next week.

In case anyone wants to start taking stats, only data are going to be (per god): wins, losses, skips, EM's and TTW (aside from the obvious deckname and deckcode :)
[18:28:55] Acsabi44: grinding is about pwning the AI as fast as possible
Back from a long break.
:water War Veteran - 4 times
Because inverted art is awesome - Looking for a tool for gather stats for arena, look no further

Offline nolf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Reputation Power: 1
  • nolf is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • New Forum-Account
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124813#msg1124813
« Reply #94 on: February 05, 2014, 11:12:14 am »
Quote from: the dictator
In general I think you (and most other people), are underestimating the effect of a skip. For example, the PDials official skiplist is 4 or 5 gods only 'because you can win against the others with a lucky enough draw', it turns out the PDials skiplist as generated by the current formulae (but based on only 200 games played, so probably not the most stable results), holds 13! gods for optimal UEI of which 2 are in the unsecure part.

I'm a sucker for stats and thus I agree, but as I said, I actually like playing the game, I don't so much care about UEI, I want to defeat those evil False Gods! :) So I always check  my opening hand and if it looks promising I'll play a turn or two. I beat Dark Matter yesterday because I had a great draw and managed to get out a combo'd doll with 80 HP on the second turn and dials in play. And Dark Matter started with two archangels and no chargers. It was still damn close, but of course that made the victory only sweeter. Stats can't account for such things, obviously.

Quote
In case anyone wants to start taking stats...

I feel a little bad that I don't record more games, but I usually only find time for very short sessions, maybe ten quick games. I spent way more time writing in this thread than actually playing (but writing feels more like working :) ).

Quote from: Tsmuji
For the record the version I prefer is the nova version with 6 SoBr and 2 GForce.

Why don't you expand upon that a little more? I might go and take another look at it, but I remember quanta being really scarce, especially earth for the BBs and you need those desperately. Doesn't aether also become problematic against tower stealing/destroying gods?



Offline Tsmuji

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Country: gb
  • Reputation Power: 2
  • Tsmuji is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake
Re: Voodoo bravery [FG][Arena][Fast][Focused] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41435.msg1124834#msg1124834
« Reply #95 on: February 05, 2014, 05:36:20 pm »
The allowance for fire mark to give SoBr the extra draw is the main reason I prefer it. The first few times I used 6 SoBr I had a tendency to over draw and nearly deck myself out but once you get used to that it becomes pretty beneficial to have 18 cards worth of draw power. Quanta for BB tends not to be a problem either, the major issue is only drawing a single nova until very late, rendering you unable to play a voodoo doll and therefore clogging up your hand with combo cards. The fact that novae are competing with towers for mulligan makes that happen more often than you'd think, even with 6 in the deck.

Towers getting stolen/destroyed is rarely a worry, between 6 novae and 4 towers the very worst case scenario is that you generate 13 aether quanta and that's extremely unlikely. Compounded with denial it could become problematic but the length of games with Decay means I skip anyway, and when an early BH messes you up 3 aether is the least of your worries.

 

anything
blarg: