Post by: Veen on June 14, 2011, 05:43:41 pm
Here I present to you my first FG killer deck: Veens Vicious Viotech, or in short "VVV"
What I like about it is that most of its wins, ~95%, are EM's, so perfect for your score and electrum.
Okay so on to the deck:
Basically its built upon one combo to finish of your opponent. The combo is done in this order:
Heal -> Condor -> Fractal -> Rain of fire -> Skyblitz -> Chimera.
Ill say right now, that this is the general combo you want to use. Depending on the life of your opponent, you should sometimes play the chimera first, so you get to fractal another condor. Sometimes you will have to use the Chimerad condors to attack twice, using the heal on your second attack to get the EM. And of course there are times when you need the heal earlier, its not a big deal, the EM is still possible, but it gets a little trickier. You then have to use the ice shield and your antimatters to your advantage.
Be creative, there is room for it.
Before all this you obviously have to play your aflatoxin. Also be creative with this one, you have 2, you can use both and you will probably save enough quanta if you play your draws smart. I advise you to draw like a mad man and slow down towards the end to get the quanta. Use your Aflatoxin to get rid of creatures that have more than 3hp, however sometimes your aflatoxin is burrowed in your deck and you'll want the cells fast. Its hard to give any general strategy, because you have to adapt a lot to the FG you are facing and the game you are playing.
Id say you need between 15-21 death quanta to finish your opponent, depending on how much life he has and the amount of <3 hp creatures he has. If you play the general combo, you need 18 death quanta, which gives you 6 condors. If your opponent has 16 creatures with 3 hp or less out, that means your damage is 17 *6= 102 with skyblitz 204. This gives you an idea of how and when to use it. It also shows the importance of the Vampire Dagger.
Maybe I will post a strategy guide in the future, but for now Ill let you figure the rest out. You do need experience with FG's and you do need to invest some time in this deck, because it will not play itself. That said if you manage to master it, almost all your wins can be EM's :)
Max number of Condors = 7, meaning you will cast your chimera upfront. As shown in this picture: (http://i54.tinypic.com/xapb4j.jpg)
A nice little damage table (its actually quite big :) ), with thanks to Jenkar:
With Rain of Fire, Skyblitz:
| Horizontal = Creatures </= 3hp Vertical = Condors | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 |
| 1 | 4 | 6 | 8 | 10 | 12 | 14 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 22 | 24 | 26 | 28 | 30 | 32 | 34 | 36 | 38 | 40 | 42 | 44 | 46 | 48 |
| 2 | 8 | 12 | 16 | 20 | 24 | 28 | 32 | 36 | 40 | 44 | 48 | 52 | 56 | 60 | 64 | 68 | 72 | 76 | 80 | 84 | 88 | 92 | 96 |
| 3 | 12 | 18 | 24 | 30 | 36 | 42 | 48 | 54 | 60 | 66 | 72 | 78 | 84 | 90 | 96 | 102 | 108 | 114 | 120 | 126 | 132 | 138 | 144 |
| 4 | 16 | 24 | 32 | 40 | 48 | 56 | 64 | 72 | 80 | 88 | 96 | 104 | 112 | 120 | 128 | 136 | 144 | 152 | 160 | 168 | 176 | 184 | 192 |
| 5 | 20 | 30 | 40 | 50 | 60 | 70 | 80 | 90 | 100 | 110 | 120 | 130 | 140 | 150 | 160 | 170 | 180 | 190 | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK |
| 6 | 24 | 36 | 48 | 60 | 72 | 84 | 96 | 108 | 120 | 132 | 144 | 156 | 168 | 180 | 192 | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK |
| 7 | 28 | 42 | 56 | 70 | 84 | 98 | 112 | 126 | 140 | 154 | 168 | 182 | 196 | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK |
Stats:
Stats time :
deck VVV players Jenkar Statmasta™4000 *assumed card-spin/win: 35%
version 1.285
win-rate 40,78% $ track ? enabled
win-rate (n) 40,79% games 206
Score/h 471 win-loss-(EM) 84-122-(67)
Score/h (n) 466 time (h:m:s) 12:09:11
FGei[c]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) 3235 min/game 03:32
FGei[cn]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) 3200
score/h FGei(c) Statmasta™4000 wins losses skips EM/Wins -796
67
-1241
581
1075
-14897
-100
361
-46
1149
909
520
-844
-561
-572
1467
-480
229
785
1240
1354
-72
897
228
1064
-767
551
975
718-796
1872
-1241
3188
4881
-14897
817
2457
2624
5591
4813
3240
-844
-561
271
6542
-480
2411
4327
6008
6174
1871
4633
2158
5042
-767
3603
4575
4303Akebono
Chaos Lord
Dark Matter
Decay
Destiny
Divine Glory
Dream Catcher
Elidnis
Eternal Phoenix
Ferox
Fire Queen
Gemini
Graviton
Hecate
Hermes
Incarnate
Jezebel
Lionheart
Miracle
Morte
Neptune
Obliterator
Octane
Osiris
Paradox
Rainbow
Scorpio
Seism
Serket
2
4
5
1
3
2
6
5
3
1
9
2
3
7
5
2
4
3
5
6
3
36
7
3
3
4
4
5
5
3
2
3
6
3
11
7
4
3
2
1
9
3
6
10
8
1
3
2
3
4
3
6
3
2
8
1
3
6
5
2
4
2
3
5
3
2
deck Veen's Vicious Viotech players Gumbeh Statmasta™4000 *assumed card-spin/win: 35%
version 1.283
win-rate 47% $ track ? enabled
win-rate (n) n.a. games 100
Score/h 505 win-loss-(EM) 47-53-(29)
Score/h (n) n.a. time (h:m:s) 06:41:38
FGei[c]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) 3275 min/game 04:01
FGei[cn]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) n.a.
My own unofficial stats:
score/h FGei(c) Statmasta™4000 wins losses skips EM/Wins -1077
793
200
954
740
-7200
-571
1394
262
418
567
805
-1271
-549
-768
1363
451
-13
1034
957
1358
217
330
437
1305
-713
635
916
338-1077
4002
2912
4609
4077
-7200
-571
6108
2586
3168
3165
4436
-1271
-549
-768
5974
2918
949
5340
4845
5955
2178
3216
2860
5721
-713
3712
4460
3293Akebono
Chaos Lord
Dark Matter
Decay
Destiny
Divine Glory
Dream Catcher
Elidnis
Eternal Phoenix
Ferox
Fire Queen
Gemini
Graviton
Hecate
Hermes
Incarnate
Jezebel
Lionheart
Miracle
Morte
Neptune
Obliterator
Octane
Osiris
Paradox
Rainbow
Scorpio
Seism
Serket
3
1
3
1
2
2
2
1
2
2
2
1
5
3
2
2
2
3
1
4
2
14
3
1
1
1
4
3
2
1
3
3
2
3
1
2
5
3
2
4
3
1
1
1
1
2
1
2
1
1
2
2
1
2
3
2
2
1
1
2
2
Wins/Losses
• Akebono 0 2
• Chaos Lord 1 2
• Dark Matter 1 5
• Decay 3 1
• Destiny 5 0
• Divine Glory 0 4
• Dream Catcher 0 6
• Elidnis 2 2
• Eternal Phoenix 0 1
• Ferox 2 1
• Fire Queen 2 3
• Gemini 2 1
• Graviton 2 1
• Hecate 0 1
• Hermes 2 3
• Incarnate 3 1
• Jezebel 1 4
• Lionheart 1 4
• Miracle 3 2
• Morte 4 0
• Neptune 2 0
• Oblititerator 0 1
• Octane 3 2
• Osiris 0 0
• Paradox 5 0
• Rainbow 0 5
• Scorpio 3 1
• Seism 1 1
• Serket 2 2
50 wins - 56 losses. Though you shouldnt even waste your time with Divine Glory, Rainbow and Dream Catcher. If you take these out, you end up with:
50 wins - 41 losses.
Post by: Seraph on June 14, 2011, 08:34:45 pm
I suppose it is to get that last SoG Effect, but why not use a real SoG, in place of a QT or PA!
Post by: Veen on June 14, 2011, 08:49:22 pm
1: To add in healing (for just 2 quanta, you can play it whenever giving you 6 healing, depending on shields of course)
2: To get some initial damage, which is very useful, if you cant max out your combo at the end. (due to whatever reasons, find out for yourself :))
Post by: Nepycros on June 14, 2011, 09:36:46 pm
Post by: xn0ize on June 15, 2011, 09:25:43 am
Post by: ralouf on June 15, 2011, 10:51:44 am
Post by: Veen on June 15, 2011, 12:37:13 pm
Just put a LS to make sure you EM no ?No, because that leaves you with 1 less condor.
@ Xnoize, Its a shame you find it nothing special, I have put a lot of work into it. Maybe you should try it.
Post by: Opsinis on June 15, 2011, 03:28:01 pm
Nice deck, by the way.
Post by: Essence on June 15, 2011, 03:54:26 pm
Post by: Genuinous on June 15, 2011, 04:04:36 pm
Post by: Veen on June 15, 2011, 04:26:26 pm
Why aren't the first 4 cards upped? Are they better that way (for a reason unknown to me) or did you just not have the electrum needed?Thank you :) No I didnt have them upped and since you will always have the quanta to play them, you can leave them unupped.
Nice deck, by the way.
95% EM rate is good, but do you have any winrate??I have posted stats at the end of the post.
Post by: Veen on June 15, 2011, 04:28:51 pm
Deck is good. Slow, with a winrate about equivalent to some faster FG decks, so not going on my list of killer FG decks, but it's quite fun and rewarding to pull off the combo at the end. :)It looks slow, but really its faster than CCYB, because you can draw heavily.
And thank you :)
Post by: Genuinous on June 15, 2011, 04:38:15 pm
The deck looks good and you might suggest it in the FG Efficiency Study (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.0.html)
Post by: Essence on June 15, 2011, 04:45:15 pm
Deck is good. Slow, with a winrate about equivalent to some faster FG decks, so not going on my list of killer FG decks, but it's quite fun and rewarding to pull off the combo at the end. :)It looks slow, but really its faster than CCYB, because you can draw heavily.
And thank you :)
Hmm, maybe I'm just having back luck drawing Hourglasses. I'll keep playing with it and report back in a few days. :)
Post by: Veen on June 15, 2011, 04:47:22 pm
Haha the table is a mess isnt it? Ill see if I can fix it.
Post by: Genuinous on June 15, 2011, 05:00:37 pm
Also you could try and copy the FG sheet and just fill in your results :)
Post by: Essence on June 15, 2011, 07:33:32 pm
Post by: macgawel on June 15, 2011, 08:06:47 pm
OK, not to be a jerk about it, but VVV has the same amount of Hourglasses as CCYB, but has more cards and a slower kill condition. There is no "you draw more cards", because on average CCYB will draw their Hourglasses sooner and then reach the bottom of the deck faster because of it AND because of the fewer overall cards. So, no, this deck is not faster than CCYB. Both testing and simple observation and rational reasoning bear this out.Testing, perhaps.
But reasoning, I'm not sure...
With CCYB, you have to stop draw cards or you'll deck out. With this deck you don't care about deckout since you want the OTK combo.
Post by: Veen on June 15, 2011, 09:30:01 pm
OK, not to be a jerk about it, but VVV has the same amount of Hourglasses as CCYB, but has more cards and a slower kill condition. There is no "you draw more cards", because on average CCYB will draw their Hourglasses sooner and then reach the bottom of the deck faster because of it AND because of the fewer overall cards. So, no, this deck is not faster than CCYB. Both testing and simple observation and rational reasoning bear this out.Im sorry you feel that way as it isnt my observation and feeling with the deck and as Macgawel already pointed out, you can continue drawing, thats why. So your rational reasoning needs a bit of tweaking ;)
Also to add, you dont have to use the second aflatoxin, so you discard that.
Post by: Genuinous on June 15, 2011, 09:31:35 pm
Instead of arguing about potentials let's see the facts ;)
Post by: Essence on June 16, 2011, 04:42:23 pm
Post by: einish on June 16, 2011, 06:18:21 pm
I added a four upped Sundials for stalling
Post by: the_unknown on June 17, 2011, 01:05:54 pm
Post by: Veen on June 18, 2011, 03:55:37 pm
To me it looks like you could use more death quanta what I'd say is throw in a couple of soulcatchers and also a liquid shadow for better easier EMsI tried LS with when I was tweaking it, but the heal works better. Also soulcatchers are not needed.
Post by: siks on June 24, 2011, 11:48:56 am
I added a spine carapace and I have the feeling it improved the winrate quite a bit. before I had a couple of games where I got the afla too slow and too many slots were already taken so it helped quite a bit to be able to empty them again.
Post by: Calindu on June 24, 2011, 06:02:44 pm
Post by: Veen on June 24, 2011, 08:39:22 pm
I think you need to change vamp dagger with pulvy/eternity and add in a miracle.I have tried both, but the pulvy isnt really needed, since you have a chimera and there arent really any other permanents to worry about. The only one I can think of is the catapults from Osiris, but you would need your pulvy early then, which isnt likely with one.
Also the eternity isnt very useful, since cells are generated at the end of the opponents turn, giving him the chance to play another creature, which every FG does, because they always have the quanta for it. It could be useful vs golems, firemaster and such, ill give you that, but it also uses a lot of time quanta, which is needed for your hourglasses.
Ive never needed a miracle, except in early game, but you wouldnt have the quanta for it anyway.
Come to think of it, I will do a bit of testing with an EE instead of a dagger. *Tested and doesnt work, dagger is the way to go*
Post by: Jocko on June 24, 2011, 09:57:04 pm
Chimera + LS is definetly a more secure way to reach the final EM.
Post by: Essence on June 25, 2011, 01:41:43 am
The benefit from EMing doesn't make up for the penalty from losing more often.
Post by: the_unknown on June 27, 2011, 04:08:00 am
Simple -- Heal lets you cast the card before you fractal the condors, which means the difference between 6 condors and 5 condors on the field when you RoF. If you have only 5 condors down, you MUST kill 19 creatures with your RoF in order to kill the FG (assuming he has no shields). If the enemy manages to put down only 4 creatures with 4 or more HP, you cannot win if you go the LS route.I think you've forgotten chimera passes through shields, it has momentum
The benefit from EMing doesn't make up for the penalty from losing more often.
Post by: Thiefboy109 on June 28, 2011, 12:26:21 am
Just mentioning... you use Eternity on your own creature to avoid deckout.I think you need to change vamp dagger with pulvy/eternity and add in a miracle.I have tried both, but the pulvy isnt really needed, since you have a chimera and there arent really any other permanents to worry about. The only one I can think of is the catapults from Osiris, but you would need your pulvy early then, which isnt likely with one.
Also the eternity isnt very useful, since cells are generated at the end of the opponents turn, giving him the chance to play another creature, which every FG does, because they always have the quanta for it. It could be useful vs golems, firemaster and such, ill give you that, but it also uses a lot of time quanta, which is needed for your hourglasses.
Ive never needed a miracle, except in early game, but you wouldnt have the quanta for it anyway.
Come to think of it, I will do a bit of testing with an EE instead of a dagger.
Post by: ralouf on June 28, 2011, 07:24:22 pm
Post by: Sevs on July 02, 2011, 03:31:42 am
Post by: gumbeh on July 03, 2011, 05:57:02 pm
Post by: gumbeh on July 15, 2011, 10:31:33 pm
I feel that my W/L stats can be trusted as the difference between a single QT being a QP shouldn't matter much. However my speed/efficiency numbers should be much better in the real run as I won't be watching Jon Stewart.
| deck | VVV (almost) |
| players | Gumbeh |
| version | 1.283 | win-rate | 53.33% | ||
| $ track ? | enabled | win-rate (n) | n.a. | ||
| games | 15 | Score/h | 455 | ||
| win-loss-(EM) | 8-7-(4) | Score/h (n) | n.a. | ||
| time (h:m:s) | 01:19:14 | FGei[c]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) | 2824 | ||
| min/game | 05:17 | FGei[cn]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) | n.a. |
Post by: Veen on July 16, 2011, 11:50:13 am
If you go for the full test, you should defenitely not watch Jon Stewart in the meantime :) Id like to get an accurate test done. Also the QT is important.
Post by: gumbeh on July 16, 2011, 05:31:13 pm
So far in my testing, turn speed (on MY turn) is pretty phenomenal. This isn't one of those decks where you have to make a lot of tough decisions turn by turn. Auto use all your permanents, don't use the combo cards until it's combo time or you're in doodoo and need to try for a 2-turn KO before the FG gets too much more powerful. Mostly you just blaze through your deck with hourglasses until combo time. Sometimes shield choice takes a smidge of thought, but not much.
OTOH waiting for the "fast" AI to think about his clogged hand and field full of cells adds a big chunk of time for many turns in a row.
________________________________
Testing journal days 1 and 2.
- When I lost, I came extremely close to killing both scorpio and obliterator. In both cases, pulvy would have let me live one turn longer, or more death quanta would have gotten me enough condors. On the other hand, vamp dagger has kept me alive many times so I'm not necessarily in favor of removing it. A dash of PC to handle the occasional Arsenic, Pulverizer, or Titan would be a nice convenience, though. Could even help with the occasional Unstable Gas when you're not able to find your Jade Shield quickly enough.
- EM'd gemini despite several careless mistakes during the match. Some other decks, like LA, are not very forgiving.
- Osiris is a punk. Catapults slam you just like unstable gasses do, EXCEPT catapult goes right through your jade shield. LAME. Another place where some PC might change the outcome.
- Decay was interesting. I couldn’t find my jade shield and got drained down to 15 hp. Rather than let him drain me, I threw out an early condor-fractal-RoF-chimera (no sky blitz avail yet) to soak his siphon lifes. It worked!
- Octane is interestingish – can’t really use your Afla until you get jade shield, otherwise your cells just get exploded by gas.
- Hypothetically with Akebono, you’d like to afla his overdrived creatures so they die faster and AM stable non-driven creatures and maybe already-high-damage overdriven creatures. Realistically with Akebono, he will turn you into paste long before you have any degree of control over the match.
- Eternal phoenix is very fun if you manage to get several key defenses out onto the field FAST. It's a short, quick, exciting race - if you throw up enough defense/healing early, you can reach obvious win conditions as early as turn 4.
- Chaos Lord is a tough matchup and you'll have to rush through your deck to kill him before he gets too many awesome mutations. As always, it's tough to make antimatter stick. Sometimes it's worth your while to AM a creature with extremely high stats and hope it gets mutated into something small enough for RoF to kill - sometimes it's worth it just so you stop taking 20 damage/turn from one creature. If you need the healing, though, creatures with scavenger or growth will keep an AM. Either way, make sure to slow down at the end if you don't have enough death quanta yet – maxwell's demons will gladly kill your chimera if you miscalculate.
- You can often win with just Condor-Fractal-RoF, depending on whom you're facing. You need Sky Blitz for miracle-users and chimera for certain shields. If you if you already were forced to use your Heal to stay alive, a fast win with a partial combo is better than spending time attaining a perfect combo, because EM is almost impossible without heal.
- On that note, don't hoard your heal and AMs too greedily. (I learned this during my short preliminary testing run.) You might survive this round, but if you cut it too close, the FG can surprise you in the next round. A possible EM or a sweet AM on the perfect buffed creature is not worth potentially missing your chance to execute the combo.
- I haven't lost yet, but I feel like Decay's going to get me one of these times around. If you play your sanctuary early, it will get stolen. If you DON'T play your sanctuary early, decay might become too powerful in one way or another. If you PA a sanctuary, you have to hope for a jade shield because the permafrost will probably be stolen. And what happens when PA and jade shield are both on the bottom of the deck? On that day, I think Decay will get revenge on me, but I think PA+permafrost OR jade shield is enough to claim a victory. Sanctuaries are very nice to have but not quite as important as a shield.
Having lots of fun.
Post by: gumbeh on July 27, 2011, 02:16:28 am
| deck | Veen's Vicious Viotech |
| players | Gumbeh |
| version | 1.283 | win-rate | 47% | ||
| $ track ? | enabled | win-rate (n) | n.a. | ||
| games | 100 | Score/h | 505 | ||
| win-loss-(EM) | 47-53-(29) | Score/h (n) | n.a. | ||
| time (h:m:s) | 06:41:38 | FGei[c]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) | 3275 | ||
| min/game | 04:01 | FGei[cn]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) | n.a. |
| score/h | FGei(c) | Statmasta™4000 | wins | losses | skips | EM/Wins |
| -1077 793 200 954 740 -7200 -571 1394 262 418 567 805 -1271 -549 -768 1363 451 -13 1034 957 1358 217 330 437 1305 -713 635 916 338 | -1077 4002 2912 4609 4077 -7200 -571 6108 2586 3168 3165 4436 -1271 -549 -768 5974 2918 949 5340 4845 5955 2178 3216 2860 5721 -713 3712 4460 3293 | Akebono Chaos Lord Dark Matter Decay Destiny Divine Glory Dream Catcher Elidnis Eternal Phoenix Ferox Fire Queen Gemini Graviton Hecate Hermes Incarnate Jezebel Lionheart Miracle Morte Neptune Obliterator Octane Osiris Paradox Rainbow Scorpio Seism Serket | 3 1 3 1 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 5 3 2 2 2 3 1 4 2 1 | 4 3 1 1 1 4 3 2 1 3 3 2 3 1 2 5 3 2 4 3 1 1 | | 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 2 1 2 3 2 2 1 1 2 2 |
I do not think that Jezebel is an auto-skip. She simply requires different tactics. In my losses against her, I was playing normal VVV, i.e., I was saving up for The Big Combo at the end. However, Jezebel and Lionheart can both be beaten by deckout! It's very tough to do with Lionheart. But it's not tough with Jezebel! Here's the tactic I fleshed out:
- Give her all your electrum hourglasses. This isn't tough to do, because she prioritizes them. Just make sure not to play other permanents until you have an hourglass to cover them. If you save your early SoD draw, for example, and then play it in the same turn with an EH, she will steal the EH. Try not to let her waste Steal on your SoDs and shields! You need those to survive until deckout!
- Use Rain of Fire to dispel Cloak! You only have 1 rain of fire, so you need to make it count. When you have 2 or more CC cards (AM, Afla) saved up, burn away that Cloak and choose your CC targets carefully. Some nymphs have solid attack damage, and nymphs with LS on them are nice AM targets. Jezebel will use Liquid Shadow to neuter Malignant Cells, so try to get 2 Cells to pop from 2 Aflas in the same turn, or kill the darkness nymph with the Afla.
- In general, use the RoF trick earlier if you're taking a beating, later if you haven't drawn much CC yet. If you wait TOO long, a turquoise nymph will quint up most of Jezebel's creatures. I have only done this twice so I'm not sure of the perfect timing yet.
- You can sneak in an AM or an Afla before Cloak goes up or in between Cloaks, but they're a bit more effective when used in concert. A lucky Nymph's Tear which becomes an :entropy or :darkness nymph can suddenly neutralize your CC.
- Condor can be used to soak a Siphon Life if Jezebel's hand gets too full. Fractal condors or nymphs can soak up more, but Jezebel doesn't have many SLs anyways. Don't pin too much hope on fractal nymphs, her array of nymphs will generally nullify any single type you can nab.
He quints too many creatures to be defeated the "normal" way. Far as I can tell, he'll often beat you with raw damage even when you try to deck him out, and your own CC can screw you at the end causing Lionheart to deck YOU out. I pulled it off once, don't recommend it in general, but I'm curious as to whether anyone manages to find a way to defeat him consistently with VVV.
On a completely unrelated note, the attached screenshot shows one of the more entertaining victories I had. Chaos Nuts mutated up an Endow creature, used Endow on my stiletto, and won the game for me. Even with less aggressive Hourglass usage and zero condors, that one little Endowed fella woulda slowly killed his master!
Post by: Veen on July 31, 2011, 04:14:38 pm
You are totally right about Jezebel and that is a very good strat. I also apply that strategy to decay sometimes. Let him steal my hourglasses and towers and make him deck himself out. I enchant my frost shield. Though I find it hard to accomplish, there are many things that can go wrong...
I have yet to find a good strat on Lionheart, because it seems that he uses different tactics. Decking him out is almost impossible with the damage he can generate. An early aflatoxin helps, but the turtle shield and the fact that he has rewind makes this very hard.
Maybe, but thats just an idea, you could try and get cells on your side of the field. Turtle shield doesnt absorb damage and the fact that he will rewind (make sure your defense is setup first) will prevent you from decking out. Just an idea.
Post by: gumbeh on August 01, 2011, 12:01:01 am
Interesting idea for Lionheart. I gotta try it!
For Jezebel, I've only had 2 games wherein I tried the deckout strat. I enchanted her Quantum Towers and allowed her to steal whatever she wanted. Both times resulted in a win. When you prevent her from making GOOD nymphs by enchanting her land stack, her damage is pretty pathetic IIRC. Jade Shield is definitely good enough, and shieldless is ok, too, as long as you throw your RoF + CCs onto her stuff.
That all depends on draw order, though... with exactly 1 PA, 1 Permafrost, and 1 Jade, you get a different game every time you encounter an FG who is neither an autowin nor an autoloss. I've been thinking about running the numbers with +1 Permafrost (and no other changes), because for most gods, that is the crucial shield to play. And with 2, you can afford to risk one and PA the other when you can. So far the most efficient version of CCYB has 2 Pfrosts and 1 PA... maybe irrelevant to VVV, maybe food for thought.
What do you think? Have you tried adding another Permafrost to the deck? My single victory against Lionheart relied on that Permafrost, IIRC.
Post by: Veen on August 01, 2011, 09:03:17 am
Against Lionheart I have fought him a lot of times trying to get a strategy on him, but never succeeded. Ive had permafrost up, but there isnt really a way to do enough damage to him. I think I won when I drew my dagger early and managed to get like 80 damage on him before I fractaled some condors.
Post by: Colossus on August 04, 2011, 07:04:03 pm
Now that was an interesting game to say the least. Thank you for the deck, Veen, it's been more fun for me then any other FG deck so far and hey, I finally got it to beat EP!
Post by: Jenkar on August 06, 2011, 03:12:32 pm
I'd like a god per god strategy, though :P
Post by: BluePriest on August 06, 2011, 03:47:49 pm
Post by: gumbeh on August 06, 2011, 06:29:35 pm
The thing I like abot this deck is that it breaks the conventional rainbow fg wisdom of MUST HAVE PULVY/ETERNITY!I'd counter that you don't always need Stiletto, and that sometimes Pulvy would help. You can generally manage, though. This deck is very solid as-is. Made me a lot of money.
( +1 Permafrost ) or ( +1 Pulverizer -1 Vamp Stil ) are changes that might produce an interesting, different spread of results, however. Jade shield turns certain gods into a cakewalk if you can draw it, and this deck draws very fast, so there probably isn't an equally-competitive version of the deck with ( -1 Jade ) in it. Probably.
Post by: Jenkar on August 06, 2011, 06:44:42 pm
Post by: (...) on August 07, 2011, 07:22:34 am
Post by: Toxx on August 08, 2011, 08:14:52 am
Post by: Jenkar on August 08, 2011, 10:45:17 pm
(Max number of Condors = 9)
With skyblitz, chimera, no eclipse:
| X | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 |
| 1 | 4 | 6 | 8 | 10 | 12 | 14 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 22 | 24 | 26 | 28 | 30 | 32 | 34 | 36 | 38 | 40 | 42 | 44 | 46 | 48 |
| 2 | 8 | 12 | 16 | 20 | 24 | 28 | 32 | 36 | 40 | 44 | 48 | 52 | 56 | 60 | 64 | 68 | 72 | 76 | 80 | 84 | 88 | 92 | 96 |
| 3 | 12 | 18 | 24 | 30 | 36 | 42 | 48 | 54 | 60 | 66 | 72 | 78 | 84 | 90 | 96 | 102 | 108 | 114 | 120 | 126 | 132 | 138 | 144 |
| 4 | 16 | 24 | 32 | 40 | 48 | 56 | 64 | 72 | 80 | 88 | 96 | 104 | 112 | 120 | 128 | 136 | 144 | 152 | 160 | 168 | 176 | 184 | 192 |
| 5 | 20 | 30 | 40 | 50 | 60 | 70 | 80 | 90 | 100 | 110 | 120 | 130 | 140 | 150 | 160 | 170 | 180 | 190 | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK |
| 6 | 24 | 36 | 48 | 60 | 72 | 84 | 96 | 108 | 120 | 132 | 144 | 156 | 168 | 180 | 192 | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK |
| 7 | 28 | 42 | 56 | 70 | 84 | 98 | 112 | 126 | 140 | 154 | 168 | 182 | 196 | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK |
| 8 | 32 | 48 | 64 | 80 | 96 | 112 | 128 | 144 | 160 | 176 | 182 | 198 | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK |
| 9 | 36 | 54 | 72 | 90 | 108 | 126 | 144 | 162 | 180 | 198 | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK | OTK |
Post by: Sevs on August 08, 2011, 10:50:45 pm
This might prove helpful :How do you get 9 condors with skyblitz and chimera siting in your hand?
(Max number of Condors = 9)
With skyblitz, chimera, no eclipse:
Post by: Jenkar on August 08, 2011, 10:53:36 pm
You don't. you draw them through hourglass (and the RoF, too)This might prove helpful :How do you get 9 condors with skyblitz and chimera siting in your hand?
(Max number of Condors = 9)
With skyblitz, chimera, no eclipse:
Very rare case, but eh!. Also, works vs god with no CC.
Post by: Sevs on August 08, 2011, 10:55:41 pm
ok i guess i havent played enough to do that yetYou don't. you draw them through hourglass (and the RoF, too)This might prove helpful :How do you get 9 condors with skyblitz and chimera siting in your hand?
(Max number of Condors = 9)
With skyblitz, chimera, no eclipse:
Very rare case, but eh!. Also, works vs god with no CC.
Post by: Jenkar on August 08, 2011, 10:57:03 pm
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2011, 03:08:00 am
Post by: gumbeh on August 09, 2011, 10:28:21 am
This might prove helpful :God, I love numbers.
(Max number of Condors = 9)
With skyblitz, chimera, no eclipse:
X 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 1 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 2 8 12 16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48 52 56 60 64 68 72 76 80 84 88 92 96 3 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 72 78 84 90 96 102 108 114 120 126 132 138 144 4 16 24 32 40 48 56 64 72 80 88 96 104 112 120 128 136 144 152 160 168 176 184 192 5 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160 170 180 190 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK 6 24 36 48 60 72 84 96 108 120 132 144 156 168 180 192 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK 7 28 42 56 70 84 98 112 126 140 154 168 182 196 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK 8 32 48 64 80 96 112 128 144 160 176 182 198 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK 9 36 54 72 90 108 126 144 162 180 198 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK
THIS IS WHY WE ARE FRIENDS
Post by: kirchj33 on August 09, 2011, 12:20:03 pm
This might prove helpful :Sweet! Just to clarify, columns represent malignant cells, rows represent condors?
(Max number of Condors = 9)
With skyblitz, chimera, no eclipse:
X 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 1 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 48 2 8 12 16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48 52 56 60 64 68 72 76 80 84 88 92 96 3 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 72 78 84 90 96 102 108 114 120 126 132 138 144 4 16 24 32 40 48 56 64 72 80 88 96 104 112 120 128 136 144 152 160 168 176 184 192 5 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160 170 180 190 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK 6 24 36 48 60 72 84 96 108 120 132 144 156 168 180 192 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK 7 28 42 56 70 84 98 112 126 140 154 168 182 196 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK 8 32 48 64 80 96 112 128 144 160 176 182 198 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK 9 36 54 72 90 108 126 144 162 180 198 OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK OTK
Post by: Jenkar on August 09, 2011, 12:24:50 pm
- Rows = Condors
- Columns = Things with 3hp or less (i'm looking at you, paradox, ferox).
Post by: kirchj33 on August 09, 2011, 12:50:14 pm
To be 200% exact :I was really hoping for 300% preciseness, but 200% will do I guess. Thanks for the nice info!
- Rows = Condors
- Columns = Things with 3hp or less (i'm looking at you, paradox, ferox).
Post by: Veen on August 09, 2011, 03:08:56 pm
Post by: Jenkar on August 09, 2011, 03:12:40 pm
I added a modified table to the OP to avoid confusion :) Thanks Jenkar.Y U No 9 condor? :P
Post by: Veen on August 09, 2011, 03:14:42 pm
Post by: Jenkar on August 09, 2011, 03:20:23 pm
(http://i51.tinypic.com/ou135z.png)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/33wxhdw.png)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/21mgh3s.png)
(http://i55.tinypic.com/znvcyr.png)
(http://i56.tinypic.com/n3agow.png)
Post by: Jocko on August 09, 2011, 04:54:31 pm
Post by: Jenkar on August 09, 2011, 04:57:27 pm
Post by: Veen on August 09, 2011, 05:39:23 pm
Also great job on beating Osiris, he can be stubborn and throw away your antimattered creatures, but Im guessing you got Afla early?
Also satisfying:
(http://i54.tinypic.com/105ccr4.jpg)
Post by: ddevans96 on August 09, 2011, 05:45:43 pm
So I frown, and play a quick game against ai5. Turns out to be Lumiel (mono-light), who I easily EM. Then I go back to FGs, and I get Lionheart.
This was an incredibly weird game. I stopped drawing when Lionheart had 7-8 hourglasses and 25+ cards left, and I had 8 cards left. All 4 of Lionheart's Eternities were in his last 12 cards, and by this point his field is full, so he animates and loses two Eternities. When he has 5 cards left, he gets another Eternity and it obviously sticks. I mostly empty my hand and play 6 condors to stop his scarabs from eating his own creatures.
The result? A 0-card deckout win against Lionheart. Probably the strangest FG match I've played in my life, but it was fun as all hell :)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd217934/August_9_Lionheart_w_Viotech.png)
Post by: Jenkar on August 09, 2011, 05:47:02 pm
Also great job on beating Osiris, he can be stubborn and throw away your antimattered creatures, but Im guessing you got Afla early?Most important. Use Antimatter and afla on his pharaohs. he starts throwing them, allowing more time before spamming.
Post by: Tarsus29 on August 09, 2011, 10:03:14 pm
Post by: gumbeh on August 09, 2011, 10:16:17 pm
Why ya gotta invalidate my FGei by developing superior tactics?! >:DAlso great job on beating Osiris, he can be stubborn and throw away your antimattered creatures, but Im guessing you got Afla early?Most important. Use Antimatter and afla on his pharaohs. he starts throwing them, allowing more time before spamming.
As far as I can recall, Osiris has always flung my malignant cells at me, or just rushed me down while I was trying to find my Permafrost. Looks like I beat him a couple times in my stats, though; wish I could remember how it went down. I think I was using the CC cards on any momentum'd creature, instead of saving them all for pharaohs.
OP could stand to have my Jezebel tactics, Jenkar's Osiris, and maybe even ddevans's Lionheart strat (if it holds up in further games). Not all gods call for "Heal -> Condor -> Fractal -> Rain of fire -> Skyblitz -> Chimera." Though it remains to be seen whether those should just be skipped... looking at you, Lionheart!
Post by: ddevans96 on August 09, 2011, 11:03:10 pm
This isn't the best thing in the world to do. If you're not stupid/unlucky like me, you could possibly get a 50% win rate against Lionheart through deckout. Defeating him by sheer damage would also be possible, but only with a prefect draw and early set-up. Slowly, I started to realize that deckout has a higher win-rate when not mixed with any damage strategies.
The revised version of this guide will include what to do with each card for deckout, and more complex strategies that can be used in a good early situation for a riskier challenge. Either way, the games will be relatively long, and most of the time you're probably going to wish you were playing someone else.
Note: I only used VVV a couple times before originally decking out (and constructing a guide) for Lionheart. After a while, I realized the branching strategies had a few holes in them that were constantly leading to my failure. My experience with the deck now is still limited, but better than it was at the original writing of this guide.
Shards/Purify/Sanctuary - Play as soon as possible. Use other cards and Hasten before playing Shards.
Antimatter - Drop on a high ATK creature or Flying eternity, and undo after your defenses are set up.
> Riskier: Lure as many Vader-saders as possible and drop on these instead.
Condor/Fractal - Pull out very late, with a mostly empty hand, to prevent him from rewinding his own creatures.
> Riskier: Pull out slightly earlier, then drop Rain and allow them to attack over multiple turns.
Aflatoxin - Play early in the game on his creatures to clog his field, and/or very late in conjunction with condors.
> Riskier: Play both early to clog his field, then Rain the cells late game.
Chimera/Sky Blitz - Almost totally useless. If you find a good way to use these to deckout, let me know : )
> Riskier: Sky Blitz can be used with buffed Condors for added damage.
Protect Artifact/Dagger - Play both in conjunction, or Dagger alone once no more Crusaders can be played or used.
> Riskier- Use Dagger to lure Vader-saders for Antimatter, and PA afterwards.
Heal - Use on your final turn before he decks out, or if you're in mortal danger. Math is important kids!
Jade/Permafrost - Play Jade only if Permafrost is not yet available. Permafrost is much better here.
Rain of Fire - Possibly use only if a few Scarabs have been quinted, to even the process slightly.
> Riskier: Destroy cells late-game after condors have been played.
Hourglass - Drop as soon as possible. Draw one extra card until you have a clear advantage, then draw more.
Early game:
You have to have Permafrost, Shards/Sancs, and Hourglasses out early. These are the major reasons I survived at all. Jade Shield can be played before Permafrost shield for minor defense, but otherwise should be discarded. PA can be used on any permanent, or discarded if need be.
If you draw both Aflatoxins early, you could use them on Saders or the first couple of Scarabs and attempt to fill his field. Slow incoming damage with healing and/or a shield (preferably the latter if not both). If you draw your Dagger before he gets Anubis or :aether for the spell, you can play the Dagger, or save it until later.
Mid-game:
Assuming you survive the first few turns, you've likely got your defenses set up and plenty of hourglasses. If you played both Afla, his field will soon fill up, and you actually have a small chance of could executing The Combo, if you're really lucky. This seems like it would be an anomaly though.
If you played Dagger, wait for him to Endow it, and then Antimatter them (or Anubis) for the most possible healing. He also won't rewind anti-mattered creatures, so you want to antimatter one early to stay alive, re-antimatter it late so he quints it, and waste/discard the third.
Sky Blitz should be played as soon as you draw it or discarded, because it's useless if you try to deck him out. Play Purify as soon as you draw it, and Rain of Fire once he has three Scarabs. If you saved your dagger and don't wish to attempt a Vader trick, wait until you draw PA, and play them together.
Late game:
Stop drawing just before the time where he would deck out before you. Keep track of the amount of hourglasses he has every turn. By now you should only have Fractal, Condor, Heal, and possibly Chimera, Dagger, and Aflatoxin. If you still saved your Dagger, play it once his field is basically full and all his Crusaders have endowed themselves.
If you didn't use or discard your Aflas and Chimera, you can try a trick where you create Cells on your own field. If you do this, make sure it's on the same turn you fractal the condors. If you can get yourself a set of Condors (and possibly Cells), you can allow them to be rewound/eaten, so Lionheart is less able to prevent deckout.
Once he has 0 cards left, or 1 cards and 2 spots in hand, play the Heal, and end your turn. You'll automatically win because Lionheart can't draw his required cards. If you succeed in doing all this, and have a good amount of luck as well, you can lulz and watch Lionheart helplessly deck himself out.
Post by: Jenkar on August 12, 2011, 11:25:57 am
| deck | VVV |
| players | Jenkar |
| version | 1.285 | win-rate | 40,78% | ||
| $ track ? | enabled | win-rate (n) | 40,79% | ||
| games | 206 | Score/h | 471 | ||
| win-loss-(EM) | 84-122-(67) | Score/h (n) | 466 | ||
| time (h:m:s) | 12:09:11 | FGei[c]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) | 3235 | ||
| min/game | 03:32 | FGei[cn]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) | 3200 |
| score/h | FGei(c) | Statmasta™4000 | wins | losses | skips | EM/Wins |
| -796 67 -1241 581 1075 -14897 -100 361 -46 1149 909 520 -844 -561 -572 1467 -480 229 785 1240 1354 -72 897 228 1064 -767 551 975 718 | -796 1872 -1241 3188 4881 -14897 817 2457 2624 5591 4813 3240 -844 -561 271 6542 -480 2411 4327 6008 6174 1871 4633 2158 5042 -767 3603 4575 4303 | Akebono Chaos Lord Dark Matter Decay Destiny Divine Glory Dream Catcher Elidnis Eternal Phoenix Ferox Fire Queen Gemini Graviton Hecate Hermes Incarnate Jezebel Lionheart Miracle Morte Neptune Obliterator Octane Osiris Paradox Rainbow Scorpio Seism Serket | 2 4 5 1 3 2 6 5 3 1 9 2 3 7 5 2 4 3 5 6 3 3 | 6 7 3 3 4 4 5 5 3 2 3 6 3 11 7 4 3 2 1 9 3 6 10 8 1 3 | | 2 3 4 3 6 3 2 8 1 3 6 5 2 4 2 3 5 3 2 |
Post by: boonlebrack on August 19, 2011, 07:38:53 am
I modify it like that :
- 1 antimater
- 1 PA
- 1 Vampire dagger
- 1 Purify
- 1 Alfatoxin
+ 2 pulvy (for control)
+ 1 death nymph (good hp, can kill creature you don't have antimatter combo with soul catcher)
+ 1 Tower
+ 1 SoG
+ 1 Soul catcher (combo with death nymph to earn quantum)
Post by: gumbeh on August 19, 2011, 09:35:34 am
I made a couple of plays that probably would have made them game less close. I could have gotten EM if I had not played my stilletto and/or saved my antimatter. Then again I may have also died sooner without them. I also intended for the fractal condors to draw out Rewind, but drawing out Scarabs works in a different way.This has 2 or 3 semi-conflicting strategies in it...
I think I'll run against Lionheart a few times In trainer and see how easily we could make a deckout strategy for him. PPE: Done. Writing up the guide now.
I'd like to add that this isn't the best thing in the world to do. If you're not stupid/unlucky like me, you could possibly get a 50% win rate against him. But the games will be relatively long, and most of the time you're going to wish you were playing someone else.
Here's what I would do with each card in an attempt to deckout Lionheart, with a very abnormal method. (note I've only used this a couple of times before today, so my knowledge on the deck is rusty):
Early game:
You have to have Permafrost, Shards/Sancs, and Hourglasses out early. These are the major reasons I survived at all. Jade Shield can be played before Permafrost shield for minor defense, but otherwise should be discarded. PA can be used on any permanent, or discarded if need be.
If you draw both Aflatoxins early, use them on Saders and attempt to fill his field and prevent incoming damage with healing and/or a shield (preferably the latter if not both). Otherwise you can try to save it for the first Scarabs. If you draw your Dagger before he gets Anubis or :aether for the spell, play the Dagger as well.
Mid-game:
Assuming you survive the first few turns, you've likely got your defenses set up and plenty of hourglasses. If you played both Afla, his field will soon fill up and I believe you'll have the best chance to win in this scenario, and could possible execute The Combo if you're really lucky. This seems like it would be an anomaly though.
If you played Dagger, wait for him to Endow it, and then Antimatter them (or Anubis) for the most possible healing. Sky Blitz should be played as soon as you draw it or discarded, because it's useless if you try to deck him out. Play Purify as soon as you draw it, and Rain of Fire once he has three Scarabs.
EDIT: Facepalm. You can PA the Dagger if you can't pull a trick with Anti-Vaders.
EDIT 2: Putting Cells on his field is a poor move, he'll rewind it and keeping playing it, and he won't quint it. Discarding is a better option.
He also won't rewind anti-mattered creatures, so you want to antimatter one early to stay alive, re-antimatter it late so he quints it, and waste/discard the third.
Late game:
Stop drawing just before the time where he would deck out before you. Keep track of the amount of hourglasses he has every turn. By now you should only have Fractal, Condor, Heal, and possibly Chimera, Dagger, and Aflatoxin. If you saved your Dagger, play it once his field is basically full and all his Crusaders have endowed themselves.
If you didn't use or discard your Aflas and Chimera, you can try a trick where you create Cells on your own field. If you do this, make sure it's on the same turn you fractal the condors. If you can get yourself a set of Condors (and possibly Cells), you can allow them to be rewound/eaten, so Lionheart is less able to prevent deckout.
Once he has 0 or one cards left, play the Dagger (if you weren't able to work around Crusaders) and the Heal, and end your turn. You'll automatically win because Lionheart can't draw his required cards. If you succeed in doing all this, and have a good amount of luck as well, you can lulz and watch Lionheart helplessly deck himself out.
Post by: Veen on August 19, 2011, 12:14:12 pm
I use this deck since one wekk an it was just awsome !To be honest with you, these are horrible modifications to the deck. Play the original deck and you will come up with much better results (that is if you have the cards)
I modify it like that :
- 1 antimater
- 1 PA
- 1 Vampire dagger
- 1 Purify
- 1 Alfatoxin
+ 2 pulvy (for control)
+ 1 death nymph (good hp, can kill creature you don't have antimatter combo with soul catcher)
+ 1 Tower
+ 1 SoG
+ 1 Soul catcher (combo with death nymph to earn quantum)
Post by: ddevans96 on August 20, 2011, 03:41:22 am
This has 2 or 3 semi-conflicting strategies in it...Would you mind pointing them out? I left in quite a few possible branches you could possibly take, I ironed out any actual 'conflicting strategies'.
Post by: gumbeh on August 20, 2011, 05:23:29 am
Rereading it, I see that there were changes between when I had read it and when I finally replied to it. Now I'd say the only "conflict" is that you suggest allowing your dagger to be Endowed early-game, and only later do you mention the (safer) option of PAing it. Maybe write it more like "so, dagger! you have 2 choices!", and less like "btw also, in addition to gambling, you have the option to play carefully".This has 2 or 3 semi-conflicting strategies in it...Would you mind pointing them out? I left in quite a few possible branches you could possibly take, I ironed out any actual 'conflicting strategies'.
Veen, I have good news and bad news: I finally played enough games to normalize the stats! Unfortunately, the stats went down because I kept getting rushed, or finding myself with a hand full of end-game cards when I really needed early-game defenses. It may still be possible to hit a fairly high FGei with this deck. Don't be discouraged by the numbers going down a bit. "VVV" is still:
- a VERY fun deck - everyone who's tried it loves the feel of insane OTK massive chimeras and vultures. Some people enjoy "VVV" enough to regularly choose it over a boring deck with better numbers
- a deck that puts out strong, solid numbers for FG grinding - maybe not TOP-tier, but still VERY good
When the data gets adjusted for skips I think it'll pull ahead a bit. How far it pulls ahead depends on how much the other decks benefit from skipping. Here are the new stats. Even if they're not as pretty it's my duty to post them for SCIENCE!
| deck | Veens Vicious Viotech |
| players | Gumbeh |
| version | 1.283 | win-rate | 45.99% | ||
| $ track ? | enabled | win-rate (n) | 44.82% | ||
| games | 137 | Score/h | 500 | ||
| win-loss-(EM) | 63-74-(44) | Score/h (n) | 482 | ||
| time (h:m:s) | 09:16:09 | FGei[c]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) | 3198 | ||
| min/game | 04:04 | FGei[cn]* (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,14626.0.html) | 3140 |
| score/h | FGei(c) | Statmasta™4000 | wins | losses | skips | EM/Wins |
| -1077 643 566 705 1053 -13500 -395 799 262 640 99 805 338 -569 -818 1017 316 -81 912 1069 1282 353 755 264 1306 -508 635 992 87 | -1077 3552 3630 3698 5124 -13500 -395 3889 2586 3819 1798 4436 2625 -569 -818 4952 2502 788 4760 5200 5619 2695 4376 2314 5725 -508 3712 4572 2608 | Akebono Chaos Lord Dark Matter Decay Destiny Divine Glory Dream Catcher Elidnis Eternal Phoenix Ferox Fire Queen Gemini Graviton Hecate Hermes Incarnate Jezebel Lionheart Miracle Morte Neptune Obliterator Octane Osiris Paradox Rainbow Scorpio Seism Serket | 3 2 3 2 2 2 3 1 2 1 2 2 1 6 4 4 3 4 3 4 4 4 1 | 4 1 3 1 1 3 3 1 4 3 2 2 2 4 4 1 3 4 2 2 5 3 4 6 3 1 2 | | 1 2 2 2 2 1 2 2 1 2 1 3 4 4 2 2 1 4 2 4 |
Full spreadsheet avail here:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25609.msg408955#msg408955
Post by: Veen on August 20, 2011, 09:04:04 am
Post by: Gocubbies1212 on August 20, 2011, 03:35:42 pm
Post by: Xenocidius on August 20, 2011, 03:37:37 pm
which version of this deck works the best so far? I'm thinking about selling my CCYB for it...Probably not a good idea - CCYB wins more and is faster.
Post by: Gocubbies1212 on August 20, 2011, 03:44:05 pm
yes, but it is unbearably boring... I havnt FG grinded once since arena came out simply because I'm playing fun decks against it.which version of this deck works the best so far? I'm thinking about selling my CCYB for it...Probably not a good idea - CCYB wins more and is faster.
Post by: ddevans96 on August 20, 2011, 04:01:06 pm
Ah, that makes sense. I'll edit that later then :)Rereading it, I see that there were changes between when I had read it and when I finally replied to it. Now I'd say the only "conflict" is that you suggest allowing your dagger to be Endowed early-game, and only later do you mention the (safer) option of PAing it. Maybe write it more like "so, dagger! you have 2 choices!", and less like "btw also, in addition to gambling, you have the option to play carefully".This has 2 or 3 semi-conflicting strategies in it...Would you mind pointing them out? I left in quite a few possible branches you could possibly take, I ironed out any actual 'conflicting strategies'.
Post by: Jappert on August 22, 2011, 08:14:38 pm
No shields in all of those matches before I could get my combo off is what killed me. I'll playtest some more before voicing my opinion though but I think I'd like some more shields in there!
Post by: Veen on August 22, 2011, 08:42:55 pm
on a side note, hermes is pretty difficult :)
Post by: ddevans96 on August 23, 2011, 02:53:59 am
Post by: Zerker on August 24, 2011, 01:09:19 am
Post by: ddevans96 on August 24, 2011, 01:17:35 am
Post by: Jenkar on August 24, 2011, 08:29:43 am
Post by: Zerker on August 24, 2011, 05:39:26 pm
i love your deck thank you for that great thing :))
Post by: Gocubbies1212 on August 24, 2011, 09:09:55 pm
I believe at one point, endowing a creature with negative attack still gave the Crusader positive attack. As far as I know this is still the case, but if you can prove me wrong I'll add it to my guide :)(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/6379/elementsq.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/elementsq.png/)
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Post by: Bhlewos on September 21, 2011, 04:13:09 am
Lionheart's impossible for me, apart from horrible draws on his part and an early Afla on my part. Jezebel, on the other hand, has been beaten pretty consistently -- I think I've won three out of four games so far.
You really only need to meet three conditions:
1) PA her QTs before she can make too many Nymphs
2) Afla a Nymph while she's unCloaked
3) Draw a Shield in time (Jade Shield preferred, but Perma may be safe if she's used most of her Steals...it's your call. Perma can be better since she'll waste Siphon Lifes, clearing up her hand for a deckout.)
Oftentimes she'll just draw herself to death anyway, if you get early Hourglasses. Try to keep at least one if possible since you'll need to burn through your deck to get the key cards, but her speed-drawing can turn in your favor.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/vvvJezebel.png)
The above was just me being sadistic and waiting till the last turn to OTK her. I could've won with about 6 turns left IIRC. This game she got out a total of five Nymphs btw (including the two who survived).
Post by: onering20 on September 17, 2012, 02:32:52 am
Post by: eaglgenes101 on September 17, 2012, 03:17:38 am
This is probably your best bet now that FG's have sped up and SoG's have lost much of their healing. EM's aren't so significant, but if you want them, antimatter the last attacking creature. If you need more initial defense, chuck a QT or a sanct for another antimatter. If you really want those EM's, chuck a sanct for an improved heal.
For upgrade path, you'll want the SN's and the spine carapaces upped before you use the deck (probably with a few more quantum pillars). Then up it in this order: HG's, antimatters, QT's, Aflas (now remove the extra quantum pillars), Vamp dagger, Sancts, Condor, Fractal, Sky Blitz, Chimera, Fire Storm.
Post by: redeyesly on September 17, 2012, 11:31:54 pm
Post by: Chapuz on September 17, 2012, 11:33:58 pm
Post by: ddevans96 on September 17, 2012, 11:34:29 pm
I just played this for a few hours, and the results were not impressive. I didn't keep stats, but I can guarantee intosis, rol/hope, and poison dials all smoke this as an FG grinder. Many FGs outrushed the wimpy sanc healing, bottom decked both aflas a few times, and no anti-mattered creature ever lived long enough to be of much help. And EMs aren't worth much anyway. So if you're upping cards for FG grinding, this would not be one of my top 3 deck choices.
Assuming you're talking about the deck in the OP, of course it isn't as good now. It's been quite a while since it was used, and even then it was not absolutely the best grinder.
Read threads and especially timestamps please.
Post by: redeyesly on September 17, 2012, 11:39:03 pm