ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem master for v1.17+)

[Vreely]

anyways, vreely, are your stats for 5SD version holding up? It goes a little bit against me to remove druid and steal but perhaps you are right...

I have not collected anymore stats than my original 100 games on the 5SD version.  I do think that adding the 41st card in the form of a Druid as MrBlonde suggests is a good thing.  It may change the ratios a bit and probably make the winning percentage a bit lower, but the games you do win will be quicker and you'll take in more money per hour played.

As I am forever tinkering, I am now testing a 36 card version of this deck to try an improve the odds of getting Oty and FB out earlier, as well as making the draws more consistent.   I"ll post again with details when I hit 100 games with it.  I am currently at 65 games and it seems to be working well.  Maybe not any better than the 40 card version, but comparable enough, and more consistent.

[Vreely]

I completed a 100 game test on my 36 card variant with these results:
Win Rate:  0.62
Normalized Win Rate: (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2237.msg31191#msg31191)  0.61
Detailed Statistics (http://elementsstatistics.comxa.com/getstatistics.php?dv=829739640)

The idea behind this deck variant is to shrink the size down in order to get some key cards out quicker (Oty's, Feral Bonds, etc.)   

Furthermore, in a smaller deck, you can remove some cards that were dead draws previously.   For instance, you can safely remove one of the 4 hourglasses and still maintain a good enough ratio to get the draw going.  Since the 3rd and 4th hourglass are typically dead cards in your deck, this removes one of the dead cards.  Likewise, a 3rd Quint is usually not required, and where we needed 3 in the deck before to get it early enough, a 36 card deck lets you get by with 2, again removing what is often a dead draw.

Finally, fewer cards creates more consistency in your opening draw.   This is a good thing, although does not really change much of the statistics on its own.   The downside of this deck variant is that its harder to play well.  As a player you really need to know the FGs your facing and how their scripts are processed.  You have to often play odds in when yous start/stop drawing, when you play your weapons, and when to risk an early creature.  Where as the previous variant, you pretty much just blindly draw as many and as fast as you can, this deck requires much more finesse.   I will give examples in the FG notes.

This deck did not produce any better results than my 5 Sundial variant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2156.msg31290#msg31290), however it seemed better to me.  Also, with the addition of a Pulverizer it makes many of the games go much faster, drastically increasing your win rate per hour.  So even if it is not statistically any better, I personally like it better even though its harder to play right.  I do not recommend it for beginner players.  Play a few hundred games with the easier variants first.

Changes:

• Added a Pulverizer.  This requires you to juggle weapons intelligently, but really helps against some of the FGs.  It makes up for removing the druid as it greatly speeds up the games where the FGs have defense.   This was a key addition.
• Removed a Super Nova.   They help early, are useless late, and have the danger of choking your opening draw.  Still, a little injection of quantum at the right time is worth carrying a single copy.
• Removed a Protect Artifact.   Like my 5 Sundial variant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2156.msg31290#msg31290), this requires more careful planning, but helps keep the deck trim.  Also, with 36 cards, the win rate for Seism should go up over my 40-card 5 Sundial variant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2156.msg31290#msg31290).
• Again, replaced the Druid with the Arctic Octopus.  It figures into defense, and I liked it in my 40-card 5 Sundial variant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2156.msg31290#msg31290), however I do not think the octopus is quite as critical in this version due to the Oty's coming out sooner.  Still it saved my butt enough times to warrant inclusion over the druid.
• Removed Improved Steal.   See my writeup for the 5 Sundial variant. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2156.msg31290#msg31290)
• Removed an hourglass.   With 36 cards, you can get away with one fewer of these and still get early draws going.
• Removed a Quintessence.  You only really need 2, but you need to be smart about how you play them.

Play Notes:
Chaos Lord:
The Pulverizer wrecks his day.  Hold onto your Eternity and slow down your draws as soon as the Pulvy hits the table.  Taking out his Dissipation shield will end his day really quick.  If your Pulvy comes out in time where you won't need to rewind your own cards, then protect it so he does not steal it.  If you judge that you are going to need to rewind, then do not play it because you will need your PA for Eternity and he would steal your Pulvy to ruin your day.   Like most FGs, he will beat you in an early rush, especially if he gets some nasty early mutations.

Dark Matter & Divine Glory:
Forget about it.  You have lost before you started.

Destiny & Paradox:
So long as you don't get rushed, its an easy win.  Pulvy Destiny's hourglasses and rewind any of his nasties that he cannot replay.  A fireball will win you the game against Paradox.  Also against paradox, quint any Oty that is getting beefy so that he does not twin it multiple times and surprise you.

Elidnis:
Without the druid, you need to use the pulvy to destroy his bonds, otherwise you are in for the long-haul.   If he does not quint his forest specters, then you might may want to chance an Eternity to rewind them to feed to the Otys.  If you are careful, you can play Eternity early to bounce back his guys, then replace it with the Pulvy to take out bonds.  You need to be smart and only do this if you can minimize your card drawing.

Ferox, Fire Queen, & Miracle:
Very easy pairing.   Every once in awhile, the early rush will take you down, but after that you are in the clear.  Fire Queen is a little trickier since you have to save quints in case he gets his eagle eyes going.  Once you have an Oty out of 8 defense, and a Pulvy as backup, then they are no longer an issue.  You still need to quint an Oty and a Queen however since he has the fireball thing that is annoying.

Gemini:
This one got much easier.  Many strategies work, from destroying his gravity, freezing his momemntum guys, bouncing back momentum, sundial to stall, and most of all, picking off his phase shields as they come out.  The Pulvy makes this a cake walk after you fight off the usual early phase spider rush.

Gravitron:
This "should" be easier than other variants because it should be easier to get the Immortal Oty out with a Fireball to get him going.   My stats do not bear this out.  Perhaps I was unlucky, or perhaps the reduced deck size makes the permanents that much more vital and therefore critical from being exploded.  I did only have 8 games, but I would expect the 0.17 win rate to go up a bit.

Hermes:
You have a much better chance with him now, but this is one of the trickiest one to play out.  Mostly in deciding what to do with the weapons.  You have to play the situation and take risks on what to play first, and what to protect.  I don't think decking out is an issue so long as you do not have to draw like made through 25 cards.   You need pulvy to take out the fire shield, but you also need Eternity to rewind his lava Golems that have grown too big to eat.  Once you do get setup with an immortal Oty, then you can just eat them as he serves them up, but before then its a real juggling match.

Incarnate:
Pulvy his boneyards, & freeze stuff to slow him down.  This one is easy.

Morte:
The poison can hurt if you don't get your Bonds going in time, and you have to be a bit careful with how you deploy your 2 Quints to dodge the plagues, but this one is winnable.  For some reason I only faced him once in 100 games, but I think it would be a high win rate.  I am looking to quint an Oty, then either the Queen or the Octopus, depending on the game situation.  Destroy Graveyards with your Pulvy, but really you can do fine with switching to Eternity whenever you want.

Obliterator:
Same strategy as always here.  If he gets a protected Pulvy out, you're pretty much done.  Hopefully you get a pulvy out first and can snap off any that he plays.  You have to be smart about when to play Eternity, as you need it to rewind early momentumed basalt dragons.   Do not be afraid to play Eternity first, then replace with a Pulvy after a couple rewinds.   Its a challenge to get an Oty big enough to be useful, but not impossible.  Still a tricky game, and I suspect the win rate will be below 0.50

Octane:
I only played him 3 times, and picked him twice.  I was probably lucky, because he seems hard.  In both my wins, I had an early Pulvy that basically handed me the win.  The other trick is getting 3 snacks with your Oty so you can eat most of the stuff he plays.  I quinted an Oty, then the Queen, although I would quint the Octopus early if needed to survive.

Rainbow:
Like usual, this guy continue to be a thorn.   Theoretically, the Pulvy will help you out if you get it early enough and keep it around to kill off his hourglasses, but with only 1 protect, you simply need to save it for the Eternity, so its a necessary risk that could cost you the game if/when he steals it.   He'll zap all your hourglasses, so use them as you can.   A bonewall is your savior because he will target his explosions, and pulverizer destroys on that, leaving your muc more needed bonds and boneyard.   Its not impossible to beat him, but as always, you need to get lucky.

Scorpio:
Its a flat out race against him.  You need to get your bonds setup to counteract poison.  If you can do that before its too late, you'll win.   You will quint an Oty for sure, then either an Octopus or the Queen.  Do the Queen if you do not have a boneyard up because its critical to get 10 or so creatures out to counteract poison.  If you do have a boneyard up, the Octopus is nice to quint so he can stall for you as you generate skeletons.

Seism:
With only 36 cards, the single protect deck should have a slightly higher win rate than the 40-card 5 Sundial variant (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2156.msg31290#msg31290).  My stats here do not bear that out, but it would over time.  The Pulvy is nice for picking off his diamond shield, but I often end up using Eternity to rewind his shriekers before they burrow so I can get an Oty out to eat them.  Octopus is a huge bonus here.
Deck Import Code:

Code: [Select]

6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 717 71b 71b 74b 74b 77f 77i 7am 7am 7do 7gr 7n3 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q8 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 80d 80d 80h 80h

[Astaroth]

Very nice post, Vreely. Here's my questions though.

1. Without Fallen Druid, do games tend go slower? I would imagine it would against FG's with decent shields (shields that completely stop Elite Skeletons). I know that's why Pulvy is there, but what if they destroyed Pulvy or threw out the shield AFTER you've bumped Pulvy off for a protected Eternity? Permafrost shields especially come to mind here.

2. Why the upgraded Sundials, and do you think unupped Sundials would work just as effectively in this deck? Does that one extra time quantum really matter, or is it just your preference? They way I see it, at least unupped SD's get you a free draw for half of the Light cost, and that can really help out in the first few turns.

[Vreely]

Very nice post, Vreely. Here's my questions though.

1. Without Fallen Druid, do games tend go slower? I would imagine it would against FG's with decent shields (shields that completely stop Elite Skeletons). I know that's why Pulvy is there, but what if they destroyed Pulvy or threw out the shield AFTER you've bumped Pulvy off for a protected Eternity? Permafrost shields especially come to mind here.

The short answer is yes, if not played well, the lack of a druid does slow down the games.  If played well, it DOES slow down the games a little bit, but not as bad as you would expect.  In practice, the only FG you feel the slowdown is Miracle.  It takes longer to burn through his Miracles when he has a Jade Shield out and you are hitting with Fireflies and a big Oty.   To mitigate this, use your Pulvy to hit light towers over and over again so maybe you can deny him from being able to play a Miracle chain.  Admittedly this does not work all the time.

On most other FGs you just need to be careful and not overdraw, thereby never really needing Eternity.  In this case, use the protect on the Pulvy.  Examples include Fire Queen, Chaos Lord, Scorpio, and Seism (unless he protects a diamond shield).

You site Permafrost.  The only FG with it is Scorpio.  If you have the engine up to keep you alive, then keep the Pulvy out to nail his shield and you'll kill him before you would need to rewind.  Typically in this game I am playing Eternity early (if draw allows) to help stall his Physalia poison, or lock-down a Uthalid that would be annoying for my unprotected Oty.  I then replace it with Puvy when I have control.  You didn't mention the Seism/Obliterator Diamond shield.  If he protects it, this becomes a long haul game that is much more slow without the druid.

Of course, there are the games where the Pulvy is drawn in the last 5 cards or so making it useless.  This is where the druid would help out.  Overall, it does create some slower games, but its not as bad as you would think.

One final reason I took the Druid out is the scarcity of life quantum.  Playing with a Druid, 2 Bonds, and a Queen, with the need to use them as quick as possible, I was frequently running out of life quantum.  Taking the Druid out solves this issue also, although its only a side-benefit.

For those still concerned, you can take the Octopus out and put a Druid back in.  I think you will lose more, but maybe you will win more per hour.  Its hard to measure this, but I suspect you are going to end up better with the Octopus and some slower games.  You also can just try adding the druid as a 37th card, but I caution you on this.  It may not seem like much but it does reduce a whole lot of key ratios that make the deck effective.  Again, I suspect you would lose more overall, but its possible that you would win more per hour.

2. Why the upgraded Sundials, and do you think unupped Sundials would work just as effectively in this deck? Does that one extra time quantum really matter, or is it just your preference? They way I see it, at least unupped SD's get you a free draw for half of the Light cost, and that can really help out in the first few turns.

Not many people have followed this thread from the beginning, but we did have a discussion about this about 5 or 6 pages back I think.  I used to play without upped sundials but Jangoo convinced me to try them upped.  Upping them single-handedly raised my win percentage about 5-7 percent.  The reason is simply that the early game time quantum is very precious, and well worth the occasional need to skip the card draw.  If you insist on using a Miracle, I would consider using them un-upped, but I am now a firm believer that they are in fact better when upped.  All I can say is, if you don't believe me, try it.  Those early game extra card draws via the hourglass, or the ability to rewind a turn or 2 earlier is more critical than you realize.

[Astaroth]

So I tried that deck (the one a few posts up) for about 15 or 20 games, and here's my short-term experience with it.

• Pulvy. I can already see that this thing is one of the most crucial cards (against quite a few FG's) in this deck since Steals aren't present. In 5 or 6 of my games, I had terrible luck and drew it VERY late. It could have easily saved me some games, while others, not so much. One game that comes to mind is one against Elidnis. Those Bonds healed him just enough to survive, and he slowly tore down my Bone Wall with ridiculously strong Forest Spirits and Phase Dragons. Pulvy was my last card that game...
• Arctic Octopus. I never really got to use him much, so I can't judge him. However, in one game with Fire Queen, he REALLY helped by freezing the queens while Oty ate the other ones. Without it, I would've lost that game.
• Unupped Sundials. I see how upped SD's are better now. There were a few games where I could've used Hourglasses, but my SD's kept eating up the time quantum. I might up a few and give them a try.
• Morte. I fought him twice, and Pulvy never came out in time in both of them. Morte can really rush, and if you start eating his creatures with Oty, you can end up hurting yourself if he has multiple Graveyards. I think this matchup relies solely on an early Pulvy, or him playing few Graveyards.

There were about three or four games that I just won't count because of TERRIBLE beginning hands - hands where I had one or fewer Towers to begin with. I swear that happens to me whenever I try to use a new deck. 

[MrBlonde]

I tried using Vreely's new deck without the druid but after playing a couple extremely long games against Chaos Lord (late late pulvy) and Miracle i couldn't help it... i had to put it back in to make it a 37 card deck. Although it might lose more with the Druid i need it in to keep my sanity.

Currently 18-18 with the deck and am actually quite happy with the results. I have had a pretty bad distribution of FG's so far, 21 of the matchups were against hard FG's, Rainbow(5) Scorpio(4) Divine Glory (3) Graviton (2) Hermes (2) Octane (2) Seism (2) Dark Matter (1) and only 6 against "easy" FG's (Miracle, FQ, Destiny, Gemini, Incarnate). With the 5 SD variant i would have fared a little worse and would have probably gone 15-21if not worse. I won a game a piece against Hermes, Graviton, and Octane solely due to the Pulverizer. It also probably made the difference in a Scorpio victory as well as i was hanging on a thread and ended up destroying two perma's in the match.

As Asteroth posted Morte is not a very easy FG (actually never really has been for me, i consider him an average matchup, i win 51% of the time vs him).  Went 2-3 vs him but for some reason he just seemed harder with this variant. Those 2 victories i had to scratch and claw til the end. You really do need to play a bit tighter with this deck but maybe i just need to work with it a bit more. 

This deck does feel a bit better to play. My starting hands are better and i like the perm control. Also being able to beat Octane and Obliterator is nice rather then having them as virtual auto-losses. Like the deck and will use it for a couple 100 matches at least.

[Clathius]

I have been trying Vreely's 36 card variant.  My initial impressions are:
-it has better initial draws as well it should since it is smaller yet has the same towers.
-I absolutely feel the drop to 3 hourglasses.  As a percentage of the deck, they went down.   These decks need to draw to work.   I find if I don't get an early hourglass the game is likely going to be a loss. 
-The addition of the pulv is nice but I keep finding myself in a situation early game where I have played the pulv and could use it, or save the quanta in order to play the Oty in my hand. 

[Astaroth]

I tried using Vreely's new deck without the druid but after playing a couple extremely long games against Chaos Lord (late late pulvy) and Miracle i couldn't help it... i had to put it back in to make it a 37 card deck. Although it might lose more with the Druid i need it in to keep my sanity.

You jinxed me. After I read this, I had an extremely long game with Miracle. She decked out if that tells you anything...  ???

I'm still using this deck, and the Arctic Octopus absolutely makes a difference. Miracle had 5 dragons in play, so it stalled four of them for me while Oty built up the Bone Wall. Druid probably would've lost it for me.

This is the most consistant deck I've used to fight the FG's.

[MrBlonde]

I agree the arctic octopus has had the biggest impact to my deck. For the last 250+ games or so with the Octopus it has made certain FG's much much easier. I am 18-1 vs miracle since i put the Octopus in and the one loss was a deckout. Prior to that i was winning 71% of my matchups vs miracle. Also i've been 17-17 vs Scorpio which is probably an even bigger improvement because up to that point i was 6-39 (13.3%). All of my stats used are variants of Ivalmians/Puppychow and maybe a few others smattered in for a few games.

Sorry for jinxing you Asteroth.    The one long game i had against Chaos Lord was ridiculous. I could see how certain games against Chaos Lord would be impossible to win without the Druid. If you're Pulvy gets destroyed you may never get enough dmg going to cut through the Dis Shield late game. And if your FQ dies or your graveyard gets stolen... good luck. I had my graveyard stolen that game and that really ruined my day.

[ivalmian]

I agree the arctic octopus has had the biggest impact to my deck. For the last 250+ games or so with the Octopus it has made certain FG's much much easier. I am 18-1 vs miracle since i put the Octopus in and the one loss was a deckout. Prior to that i was winning 71% of my matchups vs miracle. Also i've been 17-17 vs Scorpio which is probably an even bigger improvement because up to that point i was 6-39 (13.3%). All of my stats used are variants of Ivalmians/Puppychow and maybe a few others smattered in for a few games.

Sorry for jinxing you Asteroth.    The one long game i had against Chaos Lord was ridiculous. I could see how certain games against Chaos Lord would be impossible to win without the Druid. If you're Pulvy gets destroyed you may never get enough dmg going to cut through the Dis Shield late game. And if your FQ dies or your graveyard gets stolen... good luck. I had my graveyard stolen that game and that really ruined my day.

that's why druid is I think a must.. even as an additional card... it makes things faster, allows you to win games you would have lost otherwise, and I don't think it make you loose often..

[Vreely]

I respectfully disagree.  The druid is not a must.  Its a preference.
Every once in awhile I am getting pulled into a long game, but not so much that it makes it a terrible grind.  I did get pulled into a long Chaos Lord game as MrBlonde descirbed, and that sux, I also have hit a long Seism game or 2.   However, overall, my play rate with the Pulverizer is averaging only slightly slower than the druid decks I've played before.  I don't have a clock on this, its just a "feel" after playing hundreds of games with both.

I also think you guys are underestimating the price you pay for adding the druid as the 37th card.  This is evidenced in the fact that I am playing 0.60 win rate over 126 games now while you are quite a bit under that.  I am not that much of a better player than you.

Examine the ratios:
For example, the Hourglass ratio in the 40-card version is 0.10, in the 36 card version I am already lowering this quite a bit down to 0.08.   In a 37 card deck, this ratio goes down incrementally.  Not a huge amount, but if you take into account your QT ratio diminishing, your Oty/Quint ratio, your FB ratio, and your PA ratio (for Seism) you start to feel the effects more than you think and it translates into a small increase in losses.

Now the price I pay is a slow game occasionally, but I tell you, with the Pulvy, it is not a common occurrence.  If you just eject out of any game that will be a long haul and turn it into a loss, then your speed will match the speed with a druid AND you'll still have a better percentage.

Another problem with adding a druid is that the 36 card deck you only have 2 quints.   If your in a CL game for example, you have to quint an oty, then I almost always have to quint a queen so I can generate flies to feed my life via the bonds.   There isn't a quint left for the druid, and so it will get mutated.  Even if I don't have to quint the queen, then I am often having to protect the octopus in a desperation ploy to keep me alive past his early large mutates.

If you really do need a druid, I understand.  I am genuinely interested to see how MrBlonde's stats bear out over a goodly amount of games.   Again, its a preference for sure, but hardly a requirement.

[MrBlonde]

You certainly could be right Vreely. The only way i guess i'm really gonna be able to find out which is better is to grind out a bunch of games with both (probably 200 a piece). I would hate to use only 100 games because i am getting a bad ratio currently in matchups. I have played 76 games and here are my ratios over my 1000 games prior vs my current 76.

Bad FG's - 46.5% vs 56.5% (43 matchups)
(Dark Matter, Divine Glory, Graviton, Hermes, Obliterator, Octane, Rainbow, Scorpio, Seism)
Good FG's - 36.5% vs 19.7% (15 matchups)
(Destiny, Elidnis, FQ, Gemini, Incarnate, Miracle, Paradox)
Neutral FG's - 16.0% vs 23.6% (18 matchups)
(Chaos Lord, Ferox, Morte)

Anyhow i am currently at an unimpressive 35-41 (46.05%) over those 76 games. But checking the ratios of your 126 games bear out that i've had a bad run of matchups since your ratios matchup with my 1000 games (47-39-14, so actually you've run slightly better then my norm). I hope all my ratio stuff makes sense. Basically on a normal curve i would have had 13-14 additional "easy" FG matchups which would have certainly upped my winrate to a decent level.

I do think i need to move Scorpio and Seism into neutral FG territory though(40-65% wins) since they are no longer that difficult. I know you consider Ferox an easy FG as well but i can't seem to win over 65% vs him. I always seem to get outrushed in too many games to get a consistant 70% winrate vs him.

I must say that though my percentage isn't very good, considering my matchups, i'm still pretty pleased with the deck. I'm winning against all the easy FG's (14-1) and have a decent record so far against some hard FG's Octane (2-3), Graviton (2-3). I also will setup the elements statistics link (just been lazy and for some reason on my laptop the elements site has given me trouble with setting up stuff). Anyhow i will just keep grinding away.

Edit: Okay i added the statistics... what a pain. don't input 76 games when you're tired.. i had to redo 4 times. Anyhow also ignore the percentage, it says 49% but that's incorrect. Also for some reason the time section is blank for me so the cards that aren't listed are 4 SD's, 3 Electrum Hourglasses and Eternity.

http://elementsstatistics.comxa.com/getstatistics.php?dv=1491316809