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ivalmian

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ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem master for v1.17+) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17552#msg17552
« on: January 14, 2010, 06:05:19 am »
The idea is to be fast.. very fast.. and then use eternity to rewind yourself forever ;)

There are 3 quints, so quint one oty, the druid, and either a strong mutant or ffq. There are two protects so put protect on eternity (which should be played mid to late game,unless you really have to do it early) and another one either on towers (against seism) or on hourglass (against the exploding/stealing fg). Be judicious with when/how you use your shields!


The deck is all upped and has many versions, in the top post I'll post 4. Vreely's variant of my "fat" deck (59% win again all gods), Vreely's 36 card version (62% win against all gods), my original "fatty" (55% win against all gods), and original "slim" .

The 40 card deck by Vreely get about 59% success rate against ALL gods.

Games:  181
Win Rate:  0.59
Elemental Mastery Rate:  0.50
Cards Won:  43 (0.24 per game)

Easiest God (min 10 games):  Fire Queen (0.96 win rate)
Hardest Gods (min 10 games):  Divine Glory, Dark Matter, Hermes  (winless)
Gravitron win Rate:  0.32  (See he is beatable!!)

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
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6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 6u3 6u6 717 71b 71b 74b 74b 77i 77i 7am 7am 7do 7n3 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q8 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7t9 80d 80d 80h 80h 80h 8ps



Possibly a better version is the 36 card version although some people don't like it as much.

I completed a 100 game test on my 36 card variant with these results:
Win Rate:  0.62
Normalized Win Rate:  0.61
Detailed Statistics

The idea behind this deck variant is to shrink the size down in order to get some key cards out quicker (Oty's, Feral Bonds, etc.)   

Furthermore, in a smaller deck, you can remove some cards that were dead draws previously.   For instance, you can safely remove one of the 4 hourglasses and still maintain a good enough ratio to get the draw going.  Since the 3rd and 4th hourglass are typically dead cards in your deck, this removes one of the dead cards.  Likewise, a 3rd Quint is usually not required, and where we needed 3 in the deck before to get it early enough, a 36 card deck lets you get by with 2, again removing what is often a dead draw.

Finally, fewer cards creates more consistency in your opening draw.   This is a good thing, although does not really change much of the statistics on its own.   The downside of this deck variant is that its harder to play well.  As a player you really need to know the FGs your facing and how their scripts are processed.  You have to often play odds in when yous start/stop drawing, when you play your weapons, and when to risk an early creature.  Where as the previous variant, you pretty much just blindly draw as many and as fast as you can, this deck requires much more finesse.   I will give examples in the FG notes.

This deck did not produce any better results than my 5 Sundial variant, however it seemed better to me.  Also, with the addition of a Pulverizer it makes many of the games go much faster, drastically increasing your win rate per hour.  So even if it is not statistically any better, I personally like it better even though its harder to play right.  I do not recommend it for beginner players.  Play a few hundred games with the easier variants first.

Changes:

    * Added a Pulverizer.  This requires you to juggle weapons intelligently, but really helps against some of the FGs.  It makes up for removing the druid as it greatly speeds up the games where the FGs have defense.   This was a key addition.
    * Removed a Super Nova.   They help early, are useless late, and have the danger of choking your opening draw.  Still, a little injection of quantum at the right time is worth carrying a single copy.
    * Removed a Protect Artifact.   Like my 5 Sundial variant, this requires more careful planning, but helps keep the deck trim.  Also, with 36 cards, the win rate for Seism should go up over my 40-card 5 Sundial variant.
    * Again, replaced the Druid with the Arctic Octopus.  It figures into defense, and I liked it in my 40-card 5 Sundial variant, however I do not think the octopus is quite as critical in this version due to the Oty's coming out sooner.  Still it saved my butt enough times to warrant inclusion over the druid.
    * Removed Improved Steal.   See my writeup for the 5 Sundial variant.
    * Removed an hourglass.   With 36 cards, you can get away with one fewer of these and still get early draws going.
    * Removed a Quintessence.  You only really need 2, but you need to be smart about how you play them.


Play Notes:
Chaos Lord:
The Pulverizer wrecks his day.  Hold onto your Eternity and slow down your draws as soon as the Pulvy hits the table.  Taking out his Dissipation shield will end his day really quick.  If your Pulvy comes out in time where you won't need to rewind your own cards, then protect it so he does not steal it.  If you judge that you are going to need to rewind, then do not play it because you will need your PA for Eternity and he would steal your Pulvy to ruin your day.   Like most FGs, he will beat you in an early rush, especially if he gets some nasty early mutations.

Dark Matter & Divine Glory:
Forget about it.  You have lost before you started.

Destiny & Paradox:
So long as you don't get rushed, its an easy win.  Pulvy Destiny's hourglasses and rewind any of his nasties that he cannot replay.  A fireball will win you the game against Paradox.  Also against paradox, quint any Oty that is getting beefy so that he does not twin it multiple times and surprise you.

Elidnis:
Without the druid, you need to use the pulvy to destroy his bonds, otherwise you are in for the long-haul.   If he does not quint his forest specters, then you might may want to chance an Eternity to rewind them to feed to the Otys.  If you are careful, you can play Eternity early to bounce back his guys, then replace it with the Pulvy to take out bonds.  You need to be smart and only do this if you can minimize your card drawing.

Ferox, Fire Queen, & Miracle:
Very easy pairing.   Every once in awhile, the early rush will take you down, but after that you are in the clear.  Fire Queen is a little trickier since you have to save quints in case he gets his eagle eyes going.  Once you have an Oty out of 8 defense, and a Pulvy as backup, then they are no longer an issue.  You still need to quint an Oty and a Queen however since he has the fireball thing that is annoying.

Gemini:
This one got much easier.  Many strategies work, from destroying his gravity, freezing his momemntum guys, bouncing back momentum, sundial to stall, and most of all, picking off his phase shields as they come out.  The Pulvy makes this a cake walk after you fight off the usual early phase spider rush.

Gravitron:
This "should" be easier than other variants because it should be easier to get the Immortal Oty out with a Fireball to get him going.   My stats do not bear this out.  Perhaps I was unlucky, or perhaps the reduced deck size makes the permanents that much more vital and therefore critical from being exploded.  I did only have 8 games, but I would expect the 0.17 win rate to go up a bit.

Hermes:
You have a much better chance with him now, but this is one of the trickiest one to play out.  Mostly in deciding what to do with the weapons.  You have to play the situation and take risks on what to play first, and what to protect.  I don't think decking out is an issue so long as you do not have to draw like made through 25 cards.   You need pulvy to take out the fire shield, but you also need Eternity to rewind his lava Golems that have grown too big to eat.  Once you do get setup with an immortal Oty, then you can just eat them as he serves them up, but before then its a real juggling match.

Incarnate:
Pulvy his boneyards, & freeze stuff to slow him down.  This one is easy.

Morte:
The poison can hurt if you don't get your Bonds going in time, and you have to be a bit careful with how you deploy your 2 Quints to dodge the plagues, but this one is winnable.  For some reason I only faced him once in 100 games, but I think it would be a high win rate.  I am looking to quint an Oty, then either the Queen or the Octopus, depending on the game situation.  Destroy Graveyards with your Pulvy, but really you can do fine with switching to Eternity whenever you want.

Obliterator:
Same strategy as always here.  If he gets a protected Pulvy out, you're pretty much done.  Hopefully you get a pulvy out first and can snap off any that he plays.  You have to be smart about when to play Eternity, as you need it to rewind early momentumed basalt dragons.   Do not be afraid to play Eternity first, then replace with a Pulvy after a couple rewinds.   Its a challenge to get an Oty big enough to be useful, but not impossible.  Still a tricky game, and I suspect the win rate will be below 0.50

Octane:
I only played him 3 times, and picked him twice.  I was probably lucky, because he seems hard.  In both my wins, I had an early Pulvy that basically handed me the win.  The other trick is getting 3 snacks with your Oty so you can eat most of the stuff he plays.  I quinted an Oty, then the Queen, although I would quint the Octopus early if needed to survive.

Rainbow:
Like usual, this guy continue to be a thorn.   Theoretically, the Pulvy will help you out if you get it early enough and keep it around to kill off his hourglasses, but with only 1 protect, you simply need to save it for the Eternity, so its a necessary risk that could cost you the game if/when he steals it.   He'll zap all your hourglasses, so use them as you can.   A bonewall is your savior because he will target his explosions, and pulverizer destroys on that, leaving your muc more needed bonds and boneyard.   Its not impossible to beat him, but as always, you need to get lucky.

Scorpio:
Its a flat out race against him.  You need to get your bonds setup to counteract poison.  If you can do that before its too late, you'll win.   You will quint an Oty for sure, then either an Octopus or the Queen.  Do the Queen if you do not have a boneyard up because its critical to get 10 or so creatures out to counteract poison.  If you do have a boneyard up, the Octopus is nice to quint so he can stall for you as you generate skeletons.

Seism:
With only 36 cards, the single protect deck should have a slightly higher win rate than the 40-card 5 Sundial variant.  My stats here do not bear that out, but it would over time.  The Pulvy is nice for picking off his diamond shield, but I often end up using Eternity to rewind his shriekers before they burrow so I can get an Oty out to eat them.  Octopus is a huge bonus here.

Deck Import Code:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 717 71b 71b 74b 74b 77f 77i 7am 7am 7do 7gr 7n3 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q8 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 80d 80d 80h 80h 8ps



Here is my original fatty, from original 40 matches I played (discarding graviton, divine glory, and rainbow) I had about 67% win... but with more experience I think a better number would be about 63%.. and about 55% if you count ALL gods (jangoo's version gets about 57%).

                 win   loss   em   % win   % em
Firequeen    5   0   5   100   100
chaos lord   2   2   1   50   25
miracle           4   0   4   100   100
Destiny           2   0   2   100   100
scorpio           1   3   1   25   25
morte           3   1   1   75   25
Elidnis           2   1   0   67   0
Seism           3   2   3   60   60
Hermes           2   3   2   40   40
Obliterator   2   1   0   66   0
Gemini           1   0   1   100   100
Average           27   13   20   67.5   50

here is the deck

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5rp 5rp 5rp 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u6 717 71b 71b 74b 74b 77i 77i 7am 7am 7do 7k2 7n3 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q8 7t9 80d 80d 80h 80h 80h 8ps


Compared to the original deck, it works much better, but some people like the idea of a 35 card deck, so here it is

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
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6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u6 717 71b 71b 74b 74b 77i 77i 7am 7am 7do 7n3 7q5 7q5 7q5 7q8 7t9 80d 80d 80h 80h 8ps
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 05:37:26 pm by willng3 »

Tigerente

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17566#msg17566
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 09:32:41 am »
I see the benefit of the extra quint and hourglass, but why did you add the sundials? I know that they don't cost you a card, but increasing the deck size without adding towers just increases the chance for an initial bad draws.
How do you handle them? I mean as with all small rainbows almost all cards are needed at some time throughout the game. I had several occasions where I had the hand full of important cards against the FG I've been fighting and the only card I could play for 5-6 turns where hourglasses (I tried the 35card version and had about 1 or 2 towers out and no quanta to play anything). Not only did I have a hard time to decide on what to discard I also couldn't benefit from the hourglass as I had a full hand of cards. Situations like this (maybe related to a bad random generator for the shuffle) made me prefer mark of entropy and 6 supernovas.

YoYoBro

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17594#msg17594
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 01:45:14 pm »
Well, be careful not to say "this deck is bad" only because you got 3-4 bad draws in a row... I have tried many decks and about some of them I have been like "omg this deck rocks" only because i got an almost-perfect hand 4 times in a row... after those i decided they were just nice decks, or normal ones..

Tigerente

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17599#msg17599
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 01:49:53 pm »
Well, be careful not to say "this deck is bad" only because you got 3-4 bad draws in a row...
I didn't intend to say it's bad. Actually I like it quite a bit. I was merely comparing it to it's 35 cards variant.

mayajulia

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17620#msg17620
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 03:21:22 pm »
Similar to Tigerente I seem to have more straight-forward games with the lean 35 card Variant than with this new Variant.
What I did do to the original list was to add 2 Shard of Gratitude  and remove 1 Phase Shield. Works great to help keep your head over the water; I often sat and had a bone shield plus phase shield and could not use both; especially the live healing works great in conjunction with shields as you not only don't get more life subtracted but actually added all the while your opponent can't attack profitably.

YoYoBro

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17621#msg17621
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 03:31:18 pm »
if i were you, i'd remove one hourglass for the shards.. 3 are more than enough in a 40 card deck with dials..

ivalmian

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17657#msg17657
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 04:59:42 pm »
I added slim deck to the top post.. here are some answers to concerns posted:

About shards.

 I would place up to 3 shards into the fatty deck... first shard instead of feral bond, second instead of quint (one of three), third instead of hourglass or phase shield.... I don't own shards, so I can't comment/test this, but if someone can do it and post stats, I would most welcome it!!!

Fat vs Slim

The reason I added 3 sundials is because they are essentially free shields.. since mark is time, you can use it to keep yourself alive for one turn (which will allow you  to draw 3-4 cards, hopefully something that might save you).. I DO NOT play sundials just to draw an extra card, since that's a waste of sundial most of the time, I would suggest you HOLD ON to them until the enemy has lots of creatures.

I advocate 4 glasses (even add it as 36th card to the slim version) since by 10th card (7+3 draws, when you are guaranteed to have 3 time quanta unless you played a dial) you have a 70% of getting an hourglass vs a 58% for fat deck and 75% instead of 65% for the slim deck... But the faster you get your first hourglass, the faster your get your second one, and once you have two-three hourglasses, you can win absolutely most games...

 Also, with 40 cards there is less chance of eternity getting stuck at the bottom and an extra quint allows you to play creatures faster (since I don't have to wait as long to get a quint) and it allows you a little more flexibility with what you protect (since druid + one oty absolutely have to get quinted almost in all games where enemy has creature control... which is most games)

Again, I want to get hard stats, so please, post your losses/wins/elemental masteries


Offline Jangoo

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17668#msg17668
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 05:30:02 pm »

Ok, here are some statistics.

Using the attached version of the deck I scored in ...

51 games:
27 wins / 24 Losses 
20 of those wins were mastery
11 cards won


CL: 2/3
FQ: 3/1
Gem: 2/0
Grav: 1/6
Her: 4/1
DG: 2/1
Des: 4/1
Eli: 2/0
Inc: -
Mir: -
Mor: 1/0
Rain: 2/4
Scor: 1/3
Seis: 0/3
Fer: 2/1
Obl: 1/0

---

Good enough for me. ;-)
As stated in the FG-thread, this deck absolutely plays on the edge of everything,
be it running low on quantums in the beginning often, be it having to choose which card to discard often, be it trimming enemy damage constantly to survive just another turn without a shield or Mircacle, be it having to keep your reserve about anything all the time.
You have to carefully manage every single card you got and will always have to look wether you can get by without it before you blindly decide to "just throw out that phase shield" or such.
Making use of AI assets is also crucial for this deck, e.g.:
Let Hermes have his fireshield or Rainbow his Eagles Eye. As long as they keep killing your fireflys and skellis your bonewall lives.
Let Destiny do the rewinding for you and use your own time quanta to rewind his guys.
Let FQ build up some 5 FFQs even if you have an Oty out. Survive as long as possible with phase shields or Miracle then RoF + Bonewall some 23 Fireflies ...


I agree with invalmian that 4 Hourglasses are a must for this deck:
Drawing quickly is the decks major strength.
Moreover, Hourglasses are a prime target for explosions so since you will mostly be able to afford them due to mark of time it's no biggie playing them either way. It will just save your FB or Graveyard from certain destruction.

Also, I wouldnt take out any phase shields. They are a major survival asset of this deck and will often give you the time you need to prepare that RoF, Oty, Graveyard -> Bonewall comeback.

 

Cambadillac

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17672#msg17672
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 06:13:42 pm »
I added slim deck to the top post.. here are some answers to concerns posted:

About shards.

 I would place up to 3 shards into the fatty deck... first shard instead of feral bond, second instead of quint (one of three), third instead of hourglass or phase shield.... I don't own shards, so I can't comment/test this, but if someone can do it and post stats, I would most welcome it!!!

Fat vs Slim

The reason I added 3 sundials is because they are essentially free shields.. since mark is time, you can use it to keep yourself alive for one turn (which will allow you  to draw 3-4 cards, hopefully something that might save you).. I DO NOT play sundials just to draw an extra card, since that's a waste of sundial most of the time, I would suggest you HOLD ON to them until the enemy has lots of creatures.

I advocate 4 glasses (even add it as 36th card to the slim version) since by 10th card (7+3 draws, when you are guaranteed to have 3 time quanta unless you played a dial) you have a 70% of getting an hourglass vs a 58% for fat deck and 75% instead of 65% for the slim deck... But the faster you get your first hourglass, the faster your get your second one, and once you have two-three hourglasses, you can win absolutely most games...

 Also, with 40 cards there is less chance of eternity getting stuck at the bottom and an extra quint allows you to play creatures faster (since I don't have to wait as long to get a quint) and it allows you a little more flexibility with what you protect (since druid + one oty absolutely have to get quinted almost in all games where enemy has creature control... which is most games)

Again, I want to get hard stats, so please, post your losses/wins/elemental masteries
Your math is wrong for the odds to draw an hourglass by card 10.
At card 7 (first turn) there is a 25% chance to have at least 1 hourglass in your hand.
Here is the math:
1 / 40 = .025
hourglass in deck = 4
draws = 7
4 + 7 = 11
11 - 1 = 10 (you must subtract one to save for original card, don't ask why, you just do.  You can see why by simplifying the problem to lesser cards.)
.025 * 10 = 25% to have at LEAST 1 hourglass by card 7 (turn 1)
at card 10 (turn 3) the math is:
1 / 40 = .025
hourglass in deck = 4
draws = 10
4 + 10 = 14
14 - 1 = 13
.025 * 13 = 32.5%

To prove the math is right, we can continue to work on....
If there are 4 hourglasses in a 40 card deck, how many draws will it take to get a 100% chance to draw one?  The answer is not 36, but 37 draws(think about it for a sec). So using the same math above...
37 + 4 = 41
41 - 1 = 40
.025 * 40 = 100%

Ta da.   

lauritius

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17674#msg17674
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 06:21:35 pm »
Using Eternity against decking out takes lots of time - an eternity.   :-\

I'm considering switching back to my aflatoxin-graveyard experiments. The win percentage was much lower, but it was fast and fun.

zhen_rogue

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17700#msg17700
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 07:27:15 pm »
I agree with invalmian that 4 Hourglasses are a must for this deck:
Drawing quickly is the decks major strength.
Moreover, Hourglasses are a prime target for explosions so since you will mostly be able to afford them due to mark of time it's no biggie playing them either way. It will just save your FB or Graveyard from certain destruction.

Also, I wouldnt take out any phase shields. They are a major survival asset of this deck and will often give you the time you need to prepare that RoF, Oty, Graveyard -> Bonewall comeback.
How do you feel about that 2nd Eternity in your deck?
With 2 Protect Artifacts, do you simply toss one out early and save the other as emergency? Or is it simply to prevent the "last card is Eternity so you lose" scenario?
It seems on paper to be somewhat redundant, and perhaps an alternate card (sundial x2? poseidon? firestorm x2?), or simply going to a 39 card deck could further sharpen your performance.

Delreich

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Re: ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem mastery) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg17703#msg17703
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2010, 07:33:31 pm »
Your math is wrong for the odds to draw an hourglass by card 10.
No, ivalmian's maths is correct. I don't know what your calculations are supposed to be, but here's a tutorial on how to solve this kind of problem:
http://stattrek.com/Lesson2/hypergeometric.aspx (http://stattrek.com/Lesson2/hypergeometric.aspx) (there's a calculator (http://stattrek.com/Tables/Hypergeometric.aspx) as well, for those who just want an answer)
Actually, looking closer, it's not so much a tutorial as it is an explanation of the problem and a formula.

Also, please don't quote entire posts just to reply to a small part of it. Just quote the bit you'll be commenting on and relevant context, if any.

 

anything
blarg: