ivalmian's Rainbow SpeedDeck (kills almost all FG with elem master for v1.17+)

[Jangoo]

How do you feel about that 2nd Eternity in your deck?
With 2 Protect Artifacts, do you simply toss one out early and save the other as emergency? Or is it simply to prevent the "last card is Eternity so you lose" scenario?
It seems on paper to be somewhat redundant, and perhaps an alternate card (sundial x2? poseidon? firestorm x2?), or simply going to a 39 card deck could further sharpen your performance.

No, that "last card in deck" scenario doesnt worry me at all because the statistics are just fine for me: One game in 35-40 games where Eternity comes last and it doesnt even mean that you HAVE to lose because of it is no reason to clog up a deck I think.

I put in a second Eternity simply because it is an awesome tool that goes waaaay beyond preventing a deckout.
As I suggested in the other thread, I think this deck performs so well because it doesn't even try to be ready for absolutely anything. It doesnt have two RoFs to even be able to counter Graviton, it doesnt have a Pulvy and thus doesnt care about Eagles Eye, enemy shields etc., it doesnt have deflag, a second steal or even PU.
It just stubbornly sticks to the TIME-theme of drawing fast and getting out YOUR setup asap.
And if I do choose to play with mark of time I want to make sure I at least have the most powerful time-card ready when I need it. 

Eternity is used for various things here:

- sending back any growers that have grown too large (f.spectres, fireeaters, destroyers etc.)
- sending back any protectors my single oty wont be able to deal with this turn (e.g. shriekers before they burrow, anubis before he immos etc.)
- sending back any creature that has momentum on it to remove it (Gemini-scenario)
- sending back any creature that will drain the AIs quantum supply (make him repay that dragon over and over thus stalling him to play anything else with this elements-quantum)
- sending back any bighitter I mutated (either because he is still too big for Oty or because he turned out to be an element the AI doesnt have)
- sending back anything that would just be too much for my Bonewall
- sending back any creature of mine that got damaged (infected otys, FQs I didnt have quint ready for)
- sending back any mutation on my side that would be much better as the original creature
(Anubis with 2/4 and scavenger? FQ with 3/2 and dive? Fallen Elf with 1/3 and infect? ... hm ...)

That should about cover the most prominent uses of Eternity.
So I am always happy to have one ready somewhat earlier than turn 13 (statistical middle ground) and I dont think any other card could make up for it. 

[Delreich]

(Anubis with 2/4 and scavenger? FQ with 3/2 and dive? Fallen Elf with 1/3 and infect? ... hm ...)

None of those will ever actually happen (unless you meant a 7/12 nub, etc), as mutants never have lower stats the their non-mutant forms. Also, I'd say just about any scavenger is useful.
Your point still stands of course, it's just the examples that are a bit flawed. =]

I'm not sure I agree with you about eternity being the most powerful time card though, I think that honour goes to the hourglasses.

[YoYoBro]

Scavengers are useful depending on the situation. And are you talking of "most powerful time card".. do you mean time only? I mean, both cost and effect cost? Because anubis would be another good candidate..

[ivalmian]

Your math is wrong for the odds to draw an hourglass by card 10.
At card 7 (first turn) there is a 25% chance to have at least 1 hourglass in your hand.
Here is the math:
1 / 40 = .025
hourglass in deck = 4
draws = 7
4 + 7 = 11
11 - 1 = 10 (you must subtract one to save for original card, don't ask why, you just do.  You can see why by simplifying the problem to lesser cards.)
.025 * 10 = 25% to have at LEAST 1 hourglass by card 7 (turn 1)
at card 10 (turn 3) the math is:
1 / 40 = .025
hourglass in deck = 4
draws = 10
4 + 10 = 14
14 - 1 = 13
.025 * 13 = 32.5%

To prove the math is right, we can continue to work on....
If there are 4 hourglasses in a 40 card deck, how many draws will it take to get a 100% chance to draw one?  The answer is not 36, but 37 draws(think about it for a sec). So using the same math above...
37 + 4 = 41
41 - 1 = 40
.025 * 40 = 100%

Ta da.

32.5% is the probability of getting EXACTLY one hourglass, 70% is the probability of getting AT LEAST one hourglass.. it is equal to P(1hg)+P(2hg)+P(3hg)+P(4hg)... You calculated the first term in the sum, the other 3 terms increase 32.5 to 70%

An easier way to calculate the "AT LEAST" probability is to calculate probability of getting 0 houglasses and then substracting that probability from 1 (which give you the probability of NOT getting 0 hourglasses, that is, getting AT LEAST 1 hourglass)...

I know my stats, I'm a physics grad student

[ivalmian]

I agree with invalmian that 4 Hourglasses are a must for this deck:
Drawing quickly is the decks major strength.
Moreover, Hourglasses are a prime target for explosions so since you will mostly be able to afford them due to mark of time it's no biggie playing them either way. It will just save your FB or Graveyard from certain destruction.

Also, I wouldnt take out any phase shields. They are a major survival asset of this deck and will often give you the time you need to prepare that RoF, Oty, Graveyard -> Bonewall comeback.

How do you feel about that 2nd Eternity in your deck?
With 2 Protect Artifacts, do you simply toss one out early and save the other as emergency? Or is it simply to prevent the "last card is Eternity so you lose" scenario?
It seems on paper to be somewhat redundant, and perhaps an alternate card (sundial x2? poseidon? firestorm x2?), or simply going to a 39 card deck could further sharpen your performance.

The two protect artifacts are there so that (1) When playing Seism, you get a chance to protect your pillars before they become rubble (2)  if you fight someone with explodes, you can protect an hourglass or towers (depending on what you have less) and still have one for your eternity

I haven't tested a 2nd eternity (I only own one, and I don't feel like spending a lot of time in trainer), but I don't think it's a good idea.... While we are mark of time, you will have to spend LOTS of time quanta for your 4 glasses, 3 dials, 1 eternity, and perhaps 20 fast draws.... That's 39 time quanta used there... more than double of any other quanta type in my deck... and then you still have to ensure that when you reach your last card, you have about 10 time quanta in reserve so you can safely use your eternity and not deck out...  I understand that eternity is great for offensive use, but I am not sure if you can really afford it...

I think if you ABSOLUTELY hate the idea of decking out, get rewind time...

About other weapons... pulvi is the only other choice, but I am AGAINST it since I tested my slim deck with it, and I don't think it was good... Essentially, the Improved Steal is there to take a good enemy weapon and use it until you are ready to play eternity... eagle's eye is a non-issue since all of your core units are quinted... and once you start mass mutation you'll get a critter that has explode, at any rate... enemy eagle's eye will be overwhelmed... enemy shields are non issue since you will start to cause massive damage only once you have many mutants... I have yet to have a mutant army where I didn't have steal/destroy abilities... I think they are very common product of improved mutation...

So essentially, you can get a pulvi but it's only useful in early game, and then it's NOT  VERY useful (if you have no heavy hitters, why worry about shields? if your creatures are quinted, why worry about eagle's eye/eternity?)... If anything.. getting your pulvi stolen by, say, chaos lord can screw you badly .

[Jangoo]

[/quote]

Scavengers are useful depending on the situation. And are you talking of "most powerful time card".. do you mean time only? I mean, both cost and effect cost? Because anubis would be another good candidate..

Yes, I was talking about time-cards only. True that Anubis is pretty good too especially when you could actually afford him due to the mark.

(Anubis with 2/4 and scavenger? FQ with 3/2 and dive? Fallen Elf with 1/3 and infect? ... hm ...)

None of those will ever actually happen (unless you meant a 7/12 nub, etc), as mutants never have lower stats the their non-mutant forms. Also, I'd say just about any scavenger is useful.
Your point still stands of course, it's just the examples that are a bit flawed. =]

I'm not sure I agree with you about eternity being the most powerful time card though, I think that honour goes to the hourglasses.

I never actually examine the stats closely except for something like "bighitter?"
But that would explain why the bighitter-mutants are almost always dragons. 

Hourglasses are vital for this deck and the time-scheme alike, agreed.
Still, considering the deck-out prevention solely, Eternity cant be weighed in gold I think.
I suppose this is like trying to evaluate the "most important organ in the human body" ... if the hourglasses are the pumping heart of time, then Eternity certainly is the brain. Anubis would range somewhere in the "right arm" segment for me. ;-)

I haven't tested a 2nd eternity (I only own one, and I don't feel like spending a lot of time in trainer), but I don't think it's a good idea.... While we are mark of time, you will have to spend LOTS of time quanta for your 4 glasses, 3 dials, 1 eternity, and perhaps 20 fast draws.... That's 39 time quanta used there... more than double of any other quanta type in my deck... and then you still have to ensure that when you reach your last card, you have about 10 time quanta in reserve so you can safely use your eternity and not deck out...  I understand that eternity is great for offensive use, but I am not sure if you can really afford it...

I just discussed this issue with Gemini and he agreed that getting his grav-dragon back all the time and barely being able to afford playing it again and again pretty much awarded me the win. 

From my experience, you will end up getting one hourglass quite early at most and a second one somewhat later ... actually powering through 3 or 4 of them is maybe needed for one or two turns only.
It is true that there is a little shortage in mid-game mostly, where you have to decide wether to draw below 3 time-quants or use those 3 for an Eternity-move. On the other hand those two choices are kind of on opposite sides of the strategy spectrum:
Drawing even faster bets on getting set up asap, using Eternity bets on stalling the AI and slicing off the most stingy edges of his creature layout thus delaying the desperate need to set up quickly.

Ah yeah, and then there is that "already 7 cards in my hand and no quants to play them"-situation. Here I am always happy to at least rewind some nasty Destroyer or something.

[ivalmian]

Drawing even faster bets on getting set up asap, using Eternity bets on stalling the AI and slicing off the most stingy edges of his creature layout thus delaying the desperate need to set up quickly.

Ah yeah, and then there is that "already 7 cards in my hand and no quants to play them"-situation. Here I am always happy to at least rewind some nasty Destroyer or something.

I realize that as well, which is why your modification was added to the top post Once more data is known about my version of the fat setup, we can compare who's is better ;P

[ivalmian]

Ok.. so I played a few games with my fat deck.. I had some lucky match ups... here are the results of my matches today:

god	win	loose	em
Fire queen	3	0	3
Chaos Lord	0	1	0
miracle	2	0	2
destiny	1	0	1

This is 6/7 wins with em (1 loss)... i had 3 rainbows and 2 divine glorys which I quit immediately (as I mentioned in the top post, this deck isn't meant to fight  those fgs )

Combine with yestrdays 5/6 that's an incredible 11/13 games... although again, I've been very lucky.. I'm sure seism/hermes/graviton would put a dent into these scores

Jangoo, I would seriously encourage you to play with my fat deck in its original setup, I find that the dials (when saved up till enemy starts hitting hard) are invaluable... + the extra quint and glass is amazing..

In almost all of my games it went like this: go down to 10hp .. then otys + sundials + bonewall + RoF = 20+ bone shield... then eventually miracle

My chaos lord game had me without glasses for the first ~5 turns... with my first glass stolen the very turn i played it (i then had 2 more come in).. and by the time i had otys out etc, i was facing a huge mutant army (gotta love 2 fate eggs both becoming obsidian dragons on the same turn  )...

[Justsoneguy]

CL: 2/3
FQ: 3/1
Gem: 2/0
Grav: 1/6
Her: 4/1
DG: 2/1
Des: 4/1
Eli: 2/0
Inc: -
Mir: -
Mor: 1/0
Rain: 2/4
Scor: 1/3
Seis: 0/3
Fer: 2/1
Obl: 1/0

Wow those are pretty nice stats vs. dg, rain, and hermes -- combined 8-6.  I'd be curious if those stand up, maybe I need to alter my deck and stop instant quitting vs them.

[YoYoBro]

This decks looks really good versus hard gods, but I'm surprised you lost to FQ and fer.. bad starting hands?

[Jangoo]

Combine with yestrdays 5/6 that's an incredible 11/13 games... although again, I've been very lucky.. I'm sure seism/hermes/graviton would put a dent into these scores

Jangoo, I would seriously encourage you to play with my fat deck in its original setup, I find that the dials (when saved up till enemy starts hitting hard) are invaluable... + the extra quint and glass is amazing..

Seism and Graviton are borderline impossible I find, while Hermes seemed to be doing his regular thing and still got boned ... I owed it to the early Eternity though in his case.

As for the setup: My deck was actually a custom version of your slim deck. 

I guess I will try and fiddle around with one more sundials and taking out the 2nd Eternity for a couple games.
As for the Tower though: I cant picture the deck without him, ending up with no or just one tower and having to discard for several turns as often as I do.

Wow those are pretty nice stats vs. dg, rain, and hermes -- combined 8-6.  I'd be curious if those stand up, maybe I need to alter my deck and stop instant quitting vs them.

This decks looks really good versus hard gods, but I'm surprised you lost to FQ and fer.. bad starting hands?

I would never just quit for "grinding-efficiency" reasons. At least take a look at the FGs opening moves and check your own draw before quitting. After all, duking it out with Rainbow is fun even you lose mostly.

YoYo, yes, exactly ... those losses to FQ and Fer were pretty much the downside of my victories against Glory and Rainbow. :-/
The two fights I won against Glory are really not representative at all ... Glory was like running on only one Morning Star for 14 turns, not drawing any Firetowers and so on.
So those stats will certainly not stand in the long run.

[AiBerry]

I'm using a variation of an early version of this deck, the main difference being I took out the supernovas in place of more towers and three shards of gratitude (I have 6). For weapons I play eternity and pulverizer, but Ivalmian, I think you have a good point regarding pulverizer. I think I'll take it out and add a steal

Regarding protect artifact, I save one for eternity and usually try to play it on my Graveyard so I have a way to get creatures out if I lose/sacrifice my FFQ.