Post by: BunKeR on January 15, 2013, 04:23:04 am
:gravityUnupped Gravitybow :gravity
The unupped list runs at about 86% win rate and the upped at 94.66% .
EDIT : This deck currently has the highest unupped AND 2nd highest upped win rate vs Bronze in the "Decks Used Against Arena with Stats 1.32" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,45840.0.html) thread. It also made the "Community-recommended Decks" vs "Bronze and Silver Arenas" in two places unupped here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,38675.msg481352.html#msg481352) and upped here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,38675.msg483602.html#msg483602) .
Credit to Vangelios for his absolutely impressive performance in BL 3/2012 with "SoFo 4 in1" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,44860.msg1017932.html#msg1017932) chronicled here "Decks of a Champion" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,45402.msg1025613.html#msg1025613) (it's the 4th deck down). Congrats on his 1st place finish . I ran a similar list to 4th place at the same event . That story is detailed here "My Battle League Story" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,45384.msg1025377.html#msg1025377) (it's the 2nd deck down).
My goal here is to bring it up to date in 1.32 and submit my testing results and stats .
I'm also going to apply some deck building rules I've come to follow to the Gravitybow . The 10 Rules I use came from the MtG Advanced Strategy Guide written by Mark Justice[an old pro player] back in 1998 . Its interesting to note that although the rules were not originally written for this system I'm adapting them to this game since the general ideas of power , efficiency and balance easily apply to this game and can be applied to any deck within this game to analyze idea's and fluidity further .
1 : Use good cards
2 : Balance your Quantums
3 : Be able to kill creatures
4 : Do not be vulnerable to 1 PC card
5 : Apply early pressure - or be able to cope with it
6 : Do not be vulnerable to to a single Permanent
7 : So not suffer the mid-game crisis
8 : Be prepared for whatever gives your deck problems
9 : Practice , practice , practice
10 : Know your role
Lets begin .
1 : Use good cards
Simple right ? Up to the 1.32 version all you really heard about was the power of Shard of Focus They only slowed down the card , and they didn't functionally change it . The Nerf This Card SoFo thread was 53 pages long .
Fifty Three pages .
The overwhelming opinion was certainly that it was the most overpowered card in the game . The combo of Gravity Pull on this card could not be ignored . Everything else in the deck would have to support this two card combo that provided repeatable Permanent Control , effectively negated a good amount damage every round and also could play Black Hole to both gain more hp's or to deny the opponent during a mid or late game turn . With SoFo pulling straight gravity quantums now a days the old timing of turn 1 Nova into SoFo are long past . Supporting 4 copies becomes difficult so I had to roll back to 3 copies instead . I'm not sure if Dry Spell belongs in the deck but it's an idea I'm planning on testing .
2 : Balance your Quantums
The Quanta Index for Gravity 6.32 , not counting the Black Holes that you may end up with . All the remaining elements are somewhere between 0.71 - 1.43 sans Fire . Fire is at 1.79 . In play terms the support cards give you time to play out a SoFo , which if you can keep alive and active you give you more time to set up threats and deal with opposing threats . I've tested -1 Nova +1 Quantum Pillar but it wasn't as impressive as the super fast 2x Nova draw . Running 6 each of Nova and Pillar meant that I would see approximately 2.8 sources in the opening hand if I went first or 3.2 sources in the opening hand if I drew first . Maybe increasing the availability of Gravity Quantums would be a good idea but I'm out of ideas and would be very open to help balancing the QI .
3 : Be able to kill creatures
A large majority of deck beat you using creatures . The deck boasts a very heavy compliment of 8 Creature Control cards ! That's 26.6% of the deck devoted to this idea . 5 hard CC cards and 3 more situational CC cards are present in the list . Lightning , Reverse Time , 2x Shockwave and Rage Potion directly remove threats , while Mindflayer gives us more flexibility in choosing what threats can remain . Gravity Pull can be used to remove creatures in emergency situations but it is best left to the SoFo unless the situation is indeed that dire .
Back before 1.32 I had Otyugh in the deck over the current Sanctuary . Back then people played a lot of turn 1 SoFo and I wanted as many outs to that play as i could get .
4 : Do not be vulnerable to 1 PC card
There is nothing more frustrating than setting up a diabolical plan that is hard countered by a single Steal or Deflagration . The deck is Nova powered , and only carries 3 non Quantum generating cards . Arsenic , Vampire Stiletto and Sanctuary are your perms . Your "shield" is actually a creature with a buff and an ability so our main goal here isn't affected by PC . 6 Quantum Pillars are the only real issue here , as a single Earthquake is going to be devastating to our defensive progress if we walk into a 3 for 1 card trade . It's is safe to say we are Deflagration or Steal safe tho .
5 : Apply early pressure - or be able to cope with it
Ok , CLEARLY this deck is nether meant nor actually beats opponents quickly . As such it needs to be able to alter the flow of a game using control . Slowing the opponents quanta , removing key components of their table , PC , CC , Quantum Denial and even Sanctuary protection provide time . Time provides cards . Cards provide answers and options and honestly , sanity . Besides the fact that this deck has a high CC bank , the SoFo+GP combo itself negates most pressure during the midgame . Removal slows early game pressure , and get this deck into the deep middle or late game where its multiple options shine.
6 : Do not be vulnerable to to a single Permanent
It has always surprised me when a deck can not answer a Thorn Carapace or Dimensional Shield chain . There are permanents in this game . There are Shields and Weapons and other things like Mindgate that are very unique . Ignoring that means losing to that . If you can't deal with it and you knew that card existed then we cant expect to beat it if we see it . Sometimes you can get away with that [coughmonoaethercough] . I prefer to err on the side of caution and be able to remove a perm thats beating me somehow .
7 : So not suffer the mid-game crisis
The mid-game is where the coolest things in games start to happen for me . I like it when I'm out of my opening book preparation in Chess and have to really start thinking and I like it when someone actually pulls off the Firefly Queen ~> Rustler dance . Most decks , if left unchecked , really start to go crazy in the mid-game if they can completely set up their plan . The plan here is to remove their cards while setting up our combo and threats . When we mess with their plan , we are also executing out plan . It's pretty hard to lose when you have a defensive combo out that destroys their stuff and negates their threats . It's normal to see that combo happen .
8 : Be prepared for whatever gives your deck problems
I'm being very realistic here . There are some serious hard counters to this deck out there . Believe me I've played this in Battle League a lot and learned that . Mono Aether with SoW , Immortals and Lightnings are a serious problem . Against those decks you need to get damage down as soon as possible , hope they chose to run Psion over Immortal and pray they aren't holding that Lightning =| . Flying Titans was used to hard counter me as was Mono Aether SoW . It's also hard to manage burst damage . For this deck an early Lobotomizer or Owl's Eye before we get SoFo out is painful . We have the option of holding back 2 SoFo to play at once . It'll mean walking into a Lightning/Shockwave and getting absolutely hosed tho . I've mostly seen 2 Weapons in a deck that used them and we use 3 SoFo's here . The odds are on our side . Even still an early Lobo/OE is very hard to overcome .
9 : Practice , practice , practice
Yay Stats !!!
In Battle League I played Gravitybow to a 69% win rate . I played it 42% of the time .
It's stats against Bronze League after 50 games is an 86% win rate and an average TTW of 13 . It EMed 12% of the time .
I remember the very first time I was thrown to the ground in Judo . I was so out of class and the other guys at the dojo were kind of showing off . I practiced and practiced and learned everything I could and went and tried it out a month later .
Man , was that ground still hard .
My point is that there is no substitute for an experienced , calm and aware mindset other than practice . Practice against everything you can . The more information you have about how a game will unfold before it actually unfolds is information that the opponent may not have , which COULD be an advantage . Every advantage counts . Even a 1% sway advantage in an open field will mean you have a 51% to 49% advantage . What if that's all you needed to do , was not play that extra Nova so you could recover from their Black Hole later .
There are a lot of different cards in Rainbow decks , and as such there are a higher number if different synergies in this a Gravitybow . SoFO+GP or Rage Potion . Sometimes the correct play is actually playing Lightning on your own SoFo just to destroy 1 more thing , effectively using a Shockwave to destroy a perm . Maybe it's letting them kill all your win conditions just so you can land SoFo+GP and deck them with Reverse Time . One thing about this deck is that it is very unforgiving . It will grab an advantage and push it . Using removal and SoFo to force an almost prison style situation at times .
10 : Know your role in the environment
Are you supposed to be pushing damage in this situation ? Do you leave this creature out or kill it right now . Sometimes the correct play will be not killing something , or not playing something . You have to hold back resources in hand . I am of the opinion that cards in opponents hand dictates options available to them . As cards decrease options decrease . It's a resource battle , with life points at stake . A war of cards . If you have an advantage push it . Be mindful of what the possible ways out to your plan are and prepare for them . Are you running through PvP1 ? Sanctuary may not be the best card then . . . as its purpose in the 1st list is to give you time against high HP decks and Poison . Things uncommon in PvP1 . Maybe putting the Otyugh in that spot would be better .
/deepbreath.
The old version is the upped list that myself and a few others ran thru Bronze to grab stats . Combined we ran 284-16 for a 94.66% win rate . Jenkars Mod is the one I currently use and it is below .
1st 50 run resulted in a record of 49-1 . With a 98% win rate. I did the run myself .
Result Record TTW Match Notes
win 1-0 9 vs Aether/Dark Vamp Control
win 2-0 8 vs Death/Entropy Bone Stall
win 3-0 8 vs Graboid Rush
win 4-0 7 vs Darkness Steal Control
win 5-0 10 Spin vs Water Control
win 6-0 11 vs Mono Aether Stall
win 7-0 12 vs Air/Light Wing Rush
win 8-0 12 EM vs Time/Life/Grav Scarab Spam
win 9-0 8 vs Tears Rainbow
win 10-0 9 Spin vs Mono Gravity Denial
win 11-0 6 vs Earth/Entropy/Air Denial
win 12-0 14 vs Aether/Fire Control
win 13-0 11 vs Mono Fire Rush
win 14-0 16 vs Mono Dark Control
win 15-0 1 EM Spin vs 1hp Entropy
win 16-0 8 vs Aether/Fire Control
win 17-0 9 vs Gravity Denial
win 18-0 10 vs Gravity/Light Stallbreaker
win 19-0 12 vs Light/Life Rush
win 20-0 11 EM Spin vs Mono Aether Control
win 21-0 11 EM vs Fire Rainbow Control
win 22-0 9 EM vs Air/Fire Control
win 23-0 14 EM vs Rainbow Heal Stall
loss 23-1 8 vs Graboid Rainbow
win 24-1 18 vs Fire Rush
win 25-1 11 vs Graboid Rush
win 26-1 10 vs Mono Dark
win 27-1 10 vs Entro/Death Stall
win 28-1 13 Spin vs Golem/Graboid Rush
win 29-1 11 vs Death/Water Poison
win 30-1 11 vs Entropy/Death PoisonStall
win 31-1 12 vs Death/Air Poison
win 32-1 10 vs Light/Air SoFre Rush
win 33-1 11 EM Spin vs Time/Life Rush
win 34-1 10 vs Mono Aether
win 35-1 11 vs Entropy Rush
win 36-1 13 vs Time Rush
win 37-1 12 vs Mono Fire Rush
win 38-1 8 Spin vs Air/LifeFFQ
win 39-1 13 EM vs Dark Rainbow Control
win 40-1 15 vs Death Poison Stall
win 41-1 8 vs Death Rush
win 42-1 11 vs Firebow Rush
win 43-1 13 EM Spin vs Mono Aether
win 44-1 10 vs Mono Aether
win 45-1 12 vs Mono Aether + Steal
win 46-1 8 EM vs Life/Light Rush
win 47-1 0 EM vs Fire Rush 1hp
win 48-1 15 Spin vs Time Control
win 49-1 24 vs Darkness/Fire Control
win 1-0 9 vs Aether/Dark Vamp Control
win 2-0 8 vs Death/Entropy Bone Stall
win 3-0 8 vs Graboid Rush
win 4-0 7 vs Darkness Steal Control
win 5-0 10 Spin vs Water Control
win 6-0 11 vs Mono Aether Stall
win 7-0 12 vs Air/Light Wing Rush
win 8-0 12 EM vs Time/Life/Grav Scarab Spam
win 9-0 8 vs Tears Rainbow
win 10-0 9 Spin vs Mono Gravity Denial
win 11-0 6 vs Earth/Entropy/Air Denial
win 12-0 14 vs Aether/Fire Control
win 13-0 11 vs Mono Fire Rush
win 14-0 16 vs Mono Dark Control
win 15-0 1 EM Spin vs 1hp Entropy
win 16-0 8 vs Aether/Fire Control
win 17-0 9 vs Gravity Denial
win 18-0 10 vs Gravity/Light Stallbreaker
win 19-0 12 vs Light/Life Rush
win 20-0 11 EM Spin vs Mono Aether Control
win 21-0 11 EM vs Fire Rainbow Control
win 22-0 9 EM vs Air/Fire Control
win 23-0 14 EM vs Rainbow Heal Stall
loss 23-1 8 vs Graboid Rainbow
win 24-1 18 vs Fire Rush
win 25-1 11 vs Graboid Rush
win 26-1 10 vs Mono Dark
win 27-1 10 vs Entro/Death Stall
win 28-1 13 Spin vs Golem/Graboid Rush
win 29-1 11 vs Death/Water Poison
win 30-1 11 vs Entropy/Death PoisonStall
win 31-1 12 vs Death/Air Poison
win 32-1 10 vs Light/Air SoFre Rush
win 33-1 11 EM Spin vs Time/Life Rush
win 34-1 10 vs Mono Aether
win 35-1 11 vs Entropy Rush
win 36-1 13 vs Time Rush
win 37-1 12 vs Mono Fire Rush
win 38-1 8 Spin vs Air/LifeFFQ
win 39-1 13 EM vs Dark Rainbow Control
win 40-1 15 vs Death Poison Stall
win 41-1 8 vs Death Rush
win 42-1 11 vs Firebow Rush
win 43-1 13 EM Spin vs Mono Aether
win 44-1 10 vs Mono Aether
win 45-1 12 vs Mono Aether + Steal
win 46-1 8 EM vs Life/Light Rush
win 47-1 0 EM vs Fire Rush 1hp
win 48-1 15 Spin vs Time Control
win 49-1 24 vs Darkness/Fire Control
The 1st confirmation run was played by Afdarenty aka MPots , from Kong . He ran 48-2 with a 96% win rate .
Result Record TTW Match Notes
Win 1-0 9 vs Gravity/Earth duo, accel armagio momentum
Win 2-0 9 vs Mono dark (with nova(!))
Win 3-0 13 vs mono entropy with six purple nymph, early oty helps
Win 4-0 10 vs mono aether
Win 5-0 8 Spin, EM vs mono life rush
Win 6-0 11 vs firestall with phoenix
Win 7-0 15 vs Grabbow with one pillar start
Win 8-0 10 vs entropy mutation deck
Win 9-0 9 vs mono life rush, two SoFo meant early shut down
Win 10-0 16 Spin, vs mono aether, spent the first eight turns with only mind flayer for damage
Loss 10-1 12 vs mono entropy, well set up then pande rewound three SoFo (One rage
potioned, one GPulled) killed shrieker and mind flayer, and lobo’d opponents two aboms…
Win 11-1 12 death rush with momentum splash, quite close
Win 12-1 11 time gravy, black hole and rewind
Win 13-1 8 Oty > life rush
Win 14-1 9 FFQ deck, stopped before it set up
Win 15-1 9 Spin, outrushed mono death, poison was problematic
Lost 15-2 11 Fire stall, zero creatures in starting hand
Win 16-2 9 Same deck as previous game, only with a standard hand
Win 17-2 10 Fire stall
Win 18-2 10 Life rush
Win 19-2 11 Mono aether
Win 20-2 6 Spin, EM, 150 hp deck, only played two devs and two pends all game
Win 21-2 0 1 hp deck, thunderbolted
Win 22-2 12 Mono time scarab deck without pharaoh, used SoR on scarabs, eaten by oty
Win 23-2 9 grabbow with no grabboids played
Win 24-2 11 Missplay nearly cost me, mono death rush, played arsenic over dagger, no poison counter
Win 25-2 12 Spin, Gravity bow > grabbow
Win 26-2 11 Nova luci hope, nearly lost O_o Early flayer helped
Win 27-2 0 1hp deck, shockwaved
Win 28-2 12 grav/earth deck with nova for graboids
Win 29-2 8 EM, vs grabbow
Win 30-2 9 Spin, EM, rainbow I didn’t see many cards of
Win 31-2 10 EM, grabboid rush
Win 32-2 10 Light stall, SoFo broke it
Win 33-2 12 Death rush, countered by Gpull SoFo and vamp dagger
Win 34-2 10 EM, devtal
Win 35-2 12 Spin, EM, immo rush
Win 36-2 15 Mono aether
Win 37-2 8 Huge random rainbow
Win 38-2 7 Voodoo Rage potion
Win 39-2 14 Nasty antimatter/bonewall/cat deck
Win 40-2 12 Spin, EM, stallbow
Win 41-2 11 Angel/rage potion
Win 42-2 15 Nasty stallbow
Win 43-2 11 Grabbow
Win 44-2 19 Firestall
Win 45-2 8 spin, mono entropy rush
Win 46-2 7 Catatitans
Win 47-2 13 Death stall
Win 48-2 10 lightstall
Win 1-0 9 vs Gravity/Earth duo, accel armagio momentum
Win 2-0 9 vs Mono dark (with nova(!))
Win 3-0 13 vs mono entropy with six purple nymph, early oty helps
Win 4-0 10 vs mono aether
Win 5-0 8 Spin, EM vs mono life rush
Win 6-0 11 vs firestall with phoenix
Win 7-0 15 vs Grabbow with one pillar start
Win 8-0 10 vs entropy mutation deck
Win 9-0 9 vs mono life rush, two SoFo meant early shut down
Win 10-0 16 Spin, vs mono aether, spent the first eight turns with only mind flayer for damage
Loss 10-1 12 vs mono entropy, well set up then pande rewound three SoFo (One rage
potioned, one GPulled) killed shrieker and mind flayer, and lobo’d opponents two aboms…
Win 11-1 12 death rush with momentum splash, quite close
Win 12-1 11 time gravy, black hole and rewind
Win 13-1 8 Oty > life rush
Win 14-1 9 FFQ deck, stopped before it set up
Win 15-1 9 Spin, outrushed mono death, poison was problematic
Lost 15-2 11 Fire stall, zero creatures in starting hand
Win 16-2 9 Same deck as previous game, only with a standard hand
Win 17-2 10 Fire stall
Win 18-2 10 Life rush
Win 19-2 11 Mono aether
Win 20-2 6 Spin, EM, 150 hp deck, only played two devs and two pends all game
Win 21-2 0 1 hp deck, thunderbolted
Win 22-2 12 Mono time scarab deck without pharaoh, used SoR on scarabs, eaten by oty
Win 23-2 9 grabbow with no grabboids played
Win 24-2 11 Missplay nearly cost me, mono death rush, played arsenic over dagger, no poison counter
Win 25-2 12 Spin, Gravity bow > grabbow
Win 26-2 11 Nova luci hope, nearly lost O_o Early flayer helped
Win 27-2 0 1hp deck, shockwaved
Win 28-2 12 grav/earth deck with nova for graboids
Win 29-2 8 EM, vs grabbow
Win 30-2 9 Spin, EM, rainbow I didn’t see many cards of
Win 31-2 10 EM, grabboid rush
Win 32-2 10 Light stall, SoFo broke it
Win 33-2 12 Death rush, countered by Gpull SoFo and vamp dagger
Win 34-2 10 EM, devtal
Win 35-2 12 Spin, EM, immo rush
Win 36-2 15 Mono aether
Win 37-2 8 Huge random rainbow
Win 38-2 7 Voodoo Rage potion
Win 39-2 14 Nasty antimatter/bonewall/cat deck
Win 40-2 12 Spin, EM, stallbow
Win 41-2 11 Angel/rage potion
Win 42-2 15 Nasty stallbow
Win 43-2 11 Grabbow
Win 44-2 19 Firestall
Win 45-2 8 spin, mono entropy rush
Win 46-2 7 Catatitans
Win 47-2 13 Death stall
Win 48-2 10 lightstall
2nd confirmation run by Jenkar here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,45840.msg1032273/topicseen.html#msg1032273) . He ran 47-3 with an 94% win rate .
3rd confirmation run by Exarp here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,45840.msg1036287/topicseen.html#msg1036287) . He ran 140-10 with an 93.33% win rate .
Comments ?
EDIT : Updated upped decklist .
Post by: wiretap on January 15, 2013, 06:01:02 am
Post by: Zarathustra1883 on January 15, 2013, 06:58:20 pm
Post by: Faro on January 15, 2013, 08:57:20 pm
with such a high win% you shold try it in silver ...
about upped version, my personal change are :
- firemaster (too slow and use 1 precious :gravity )
- rewind (not that usefull)
+ sanctuary (you aren't using :light at all and more EM )
+ precognition
and maybe -2 shockwave +2 thunderstorm
Post by: BunKeR on January 15, 2013, 09:56:53 pm
Pun Pun and I have been talking about this list for 3 days now. I was mostly taking it through PVP1, and was wrecking face with it! The main concern we had was the sanctuary, that I eventually swapped out for another lightning bolt(I also run a reflective shield because I face a disproportionately high amount of psions/shard of wisdom). I ended up 78-12, six of which I'm certain were play errors, the rest of them are debatable. Suffice to say this is currently my favorite viable control deck. Nice work, thanks for sharing the love!
Re : Reflecting Shield . I did not test one in this deck because I originally designed the deck for use in Battle League where that shield is banned . Your record of 78-12 was in PvP1 or Bronze League ?
You are very welcome , the deck was seriously strong before the nerf . It's still a load of chuckles to play with after the nerf .
+rep for this. Personally I use -1 Shockwave +1 Purify. Thanks for sharing!
With Sanctuary , Vampire Stiletto AND Purify you should not be having any problems vs Poison . Just remember to use those Black Holes asap unless they actually have a creature out . Usually they run either Chrysaora OR Mummy and not both . Just adjust your play as soon as you can make the educated call . If they are only using Chrysaora then use those BH's and target Chrysaora with Gravity Pull asap .
You're welcome = ]
Good deck Bunker !
with such a high win% you shold try it in silver ...
about upped version, my personal change are :
- firemaster (too slow and use 1 precious :gravity )
- rewind (not that usefull)
+ sanctuary (you aren't using :light at all and more EM )
+ precognition
and maybe -2 shockwave +2 thunderstorm
I haven't even started to test it vs Silver , but thank you for the recommendation . I'm probably just going to do a 50 game run vs Silver with the upped list in the OP . I'll post my results as soon as I can . Testing will show if the changes you propose increase win rate . I have to start from the ground up here tho , I have literally zero games with Gravitybow vs Silver .
That said I'm rather hesitant to drop a Firemaster because the deck is already very light on win conditions as is . No real way to tell tho , I'll test in Silver and figure it out .
Thanks for the homework :P
Edit : I started running it in Silver and stopped at 12-0 . 4 spins with 3 EM's . I'll update the OP when I hit 50 .
Post by: TribalTrouble on January 16, 2013, 11:12:15 pm
SoI I will have a collection of 12 of you, you pesky dodging shard! > : 3
Post by: Exarp on January 17, 2013, 08:50:57 pm
It's a bit slow for my play style, but also very reliable.
I typically fall back to this upgraded deck when I'm bored of losing that last match before the rare spin.
Just one small comment/question:
I feel like this deck has one too many SoF in it. On a crap draw, I never get them, but in a typical game, I'm stuck with too many gravity cards and too little gravity quanta. Am I the only one that seems to have the problem of feeling like I'm stalling myself more than needed?
I'm going to try removing one of them, and adding a single SoBra. I'm not sure if it'll help against my feelings, nor if just one SoBra will even make a difference, though.
Oh... I never seem to have quanta issues with the other elements, by the way. Maybe there's simply too much gravity strain.
Still, I love this deck, and I love using it, regardless of what I said above.
Like I said... it might be a bit slow, but at least it's reliable.
Post by: TribalTrouble on January 17, 2013, 11:20:29 pm
Post by: Exarp on January 18, 2013, 12:02:26 am
believe it or not but I believe that this is way better upped than unupped. Unupped there is too much quanta strain due to the higher costed cards(Like SoFo)I fully agree with this, since I already have severe strain with the upped deck.
Changing one SoFo for a SoBra, like I said I was going to try, seems to help a lot with this strain.
Obviously, you'll draw focus less reliably because of it, but in the last 40 or so games, losses weren't because of the lack of focus. I'd lose because i got out rushed before I could stabilize the field in my advantage, immaterial aether decks and early quanta denial decks. So in these cases, the shards were never even close to being the reason of the loss.
I think I'll switch back and forth between the one with bravery and the original one for a bit to do more tests.
Post by: wiretap on January 18, 2013, 07:33:35 am
Post by: BunKeR on January 19, 2013, 06:36:14 am
After another 50 games , I'm starting to feel that altering the deck with +1 Quantum Pillar / -1 Nova means that you have an overall smoother flow of Gravity Quantums at the expense of an explosive start .
It also significantly drops the change of starting with 1 Nova and no other sources in the opening hand .
I'm almost certain that the weakest card in the Unupped list is the Sanctuary , not the 3rd SoFo . Removing the Sanctuary to add a 7th Quantum Pillar or the 6th Nova seems like a more natural fit . This is all theoretical as of now , I haven't completed my testing on this yet .
I know the QI needs to be balanced . If we can address that problem and still keep the 3rd SoFo in the list that would be ideal .
Post by: eaglgenes101 on January 27, 2013, 05:29:31 am
Post by: CuCN on January 27, 2013, 05:52:46 am
I wonder why 2 shockwaves and a lightning rather than 1 shockwave and 2 lightnings.
Could be because the Mind Flayer uses :aether and there's no other usage of :air.
Post by: BunKeR on January 27, 2013, 05:15:09 pm
I wonder why 2 shockwaves and a lightning rather than 1 shockwave and 2 lightnings.
I wonder why 2 shockwaves and a lightning rather than 1 shockwave and 2 lightnings.
Could be because the Mind Flayer uses :aether and there's no other usage of :air.
CuCN is right . I'm chose to run a 2nd Shockwave over the 2nd Lightning because of Mindflayer reliance on Aether . Upped I've subbed out the 2nd Shockwave for the 2nd Lightning already . It's not proving a problem and mostly it's nice to have the 5th damage when running upped .
Post by: Exarp on January 28, 2013, 09:33:56 am
The tower-nova swap seems to have it's pros and cons, but the occasional earthquakes made me want to stick with the novas.
I decided to keep stats for this deck, and posted it here. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,45840.msg1036287.html#msg1036287)
RNG hasn't been nice to me today though, so I'm going to try out some new (fun)decks now.
I'll definitely keep using this deck for bronze, but I won't track stats anymore from now onwards.
Post by: BunKeR on January 29, 2013, 12:35:35 am
I played around with the deck a bit longer, and finally decided that the deck in the OP worked out the best, generally speaking.
The tower-nova swap seems to have it's pros and cons, but the occasional earthquakes made me want to stick with the novas.
I decided to keep stats for this deck, and posted it here. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,45840.msg1036287.html#msg1036287)
RNG hasn't been nice to me today though, so I'm going to try out some new (fun)decks now.
I'll definitely keep using this deck for bronze, but I won't track stats anymore from now onwards.
Thanks for that! I can say I'm still on the fence about the +1 QT -1 Nova mod . I'll say this . you lose explosiveness from the double Nova opening and you don't have Nova's to get out of certain denial strategies . On the other side you gain a certain stability since the worst start is 1x Nova and nothing after that . It's a little worse against Earthquake since you rely heavier on Quantum Pillars/Towers . Even after 100+ games I still don't really see a difference in the long run .
It's definitely a preference call . I'm surprised that both of our testing runs don't give us a definitive answer .
I've started to play around with a PSN base for the upped version but was immediately unhappy with the 0 SN Draw . With Towers you can play without Nova , with Pendulums you need SN's to even play .
Again , if anyone can help with the Gravity Quantum issue please let me know !
Post by: TribalTrouble on January 29, 2013, 04:39:58 am
Post by: pulli23 on March 27, 2013, 12:05:32 pm
first of all I really dislike two weapon types - so I've decided to go only with stilleto. Secondly I noticed I'm always out of gravity quanta and fire quanta was also very hard to come by, this let me to remove graviton fire eater & replace it with flesh recluse - as I don't use death anymore.. For a graviton fire eater to deal the same dmg as a flesh recluse I would have to use 3 fire + 1 gravity, I much rather store that fire for the rage elixer..
Post by: TribalTrouble on March 27, 2013, 07:43:26 pm
Post by: pulli23 on March 29, 2013, 02:13:10 pm
This is true. However, the Arsenic brought in poison, something which is highly underestimated by a lot of players. (Although also overestimated by a lot of players)
The problem is: poison is good only in longer matches where your "Main damage" is blocked by shields/sundials/whatever.. However with this deck this isn't a problem I found; when the game becomes longer you will get enough cc to keep annoying creatures (maxwells/ultiharid/dragons etc) at bay. You shards can almost always remove all shields, meaning the poison is simply "extra damage" - as if the weapon would deal more damage.
I found direct damage through flesh recluse (which starts at 6 more dmg) + 2 more dmg from vampiric stilleto means that this combo deals more damage early/in a rush scenario than graviton fireeater + arsenic. Arsenic has to be up for 4 turns before 'beating' vampiric stilleto. Graviton fireeater has to be up for at least 5 turns before giving enough damage as flesh recluse... + at least 4 fire quanta in that case. (Which is a lot considering you can also want to use rage elixer).
And as I said: after those 5 turns your sofo shield should be up, you should be able to stop the shields and you should win.
+ When I tested the deck I discovered I almost never could play the fire eater anyways, there's always a sofo, or oyugh (ability) waiting to be used instead.
Ow I should say: I'm also using an upped forest spectre instead of unupped. Found the 1 less turn to be in cc range very useful - as without graviton fire eater the forest spectre will be the main dmg source lategame.
Post by: Peeteriz on March 30, 2013, 10:00:55 pm
Post by: BunKeR on March 31, 2013, 03:35:53 am
This is true. However, the Arsenic brought in poison, something which is highly underestimated by a lot of players. (Although also overestimated by a lot of players)
The problem is: poison is good only in longer matches where your "Main damage" is blocked by shields/sundials/whatever.. However with this deck this isn't a problem I found; when the game becomes longer you will get enough cc to keep annoying creatures (maxwells/ultiharid/dragons etc) at bay. You shards can almost always remove all shields, meaning the poison is simply "extra damage" - as if the weapon would deal more damage.
I found direct damage through flesh recluse (which starts at 6 more dmg) + 2 more dmg from vampiric stilleto means that this combo deals more damage early/in a rush scenario than graviton fireeater + arsenic. Arsenic has to be up for 4 turns before 'beating' vampiric stilleto. Graviton fireeater has to be up for at least 5 turns before giving enough damage as flesh recluse... + at least 4 fire quanta in that case. (Which is a lot considering you can also want to use rage elixer).
And as I said: after those 5 turns your sofo shield should be up, you should be able to stop the shields and you should win.
+ When I tested the deck I discovered I almost never could play the fire eater anyways, there's always a sofo, or oyugh (ability) waiting to be used instead.
Ow I should say: I'm also using an upped forest spectre instead of unupped. Found the 1 less turn to be in cc range very useful - as without graviton fire eater the forest spectre will be the main dmg source lategame.
Great insight by the way . Mostly , the damage accumulation of a very early Arsenic should not be underestimated . Since this has a high TTW its effect is both amplified and not subject to a plethora of answers packed by many bronze decks .
On the other side , The gravity is greatly stressed , and dropping Gravitron Firemaster from the upped list is an answer to that . I've also come to accept the fact that upped Forest Sprite is actually better than the unupped one in the upped list . Jenkar did a run and that was his mod . I've used that mod since that run .
As I had only 2 SoFos, I stuck an elite otyugh in that spot, and it feels very useful there - as a repeatable CC versus all the included one-shots.
You run 2 Elite Oty's in the upped list ? Or did you put an Elite in the Unupped list ?
Post by: Peeteriz on April 01, 2013, 10:57:03 pm
As I had only 2 SoFos, I stuck an elite otyugh in that spot, and it feels very useful there - as a repeatable CC versus all the included one-shots.
You run 2 Elite Oty's in the upped list ? Or did you put an Elite in the Unupped list ?
I did put an Elite Oty in the unupped list. But here's the semi-upped version I'm running now with great success in silver. Purify has been a saver a few times, and it together with sanctuary and steal gives quite a few EM's; but is probably less quick to do damage than your version.
P.S. I've got a feeling that in Aether a Quint or Twin universe might be stronger than that Lightning, but haven't tried that.
Post by: blackposin on April 28, 2013, 02:03:50 am
you have novas, forest spirit and a mind flare.
i love this deck just confused why every thing is not uped!
Post by: BunKeR on April 28, 2013, 07:08:27 pm
why do you not have everything uped?
you have novas, forest spirit and a mind flare.
i love this deck just confused why every thing is not uped!
Nova , Forest Spirit and Mindflayer all have a higher Quantum Cost when they are upped . Example being that if you up Mindflayer into Ulithid you would need to hit 3x Nova instead of just 2 [ or hit a 3rd off of Quantum Pillar] .
If you upped Nova into SN the deck would have to wait until you hit 2x Entropy from Pillars/Towers alone . That wait could be the death of you .
I've actually been running with an Upped Forest Spirit since Jenkar showed me his mod . My own results show that while Upping Forest Spirit does make it come out at least 1 turn slower , the +2/+2 boost makes it far more resilient than its unupped counterpart .
I've also come to accept the fact that upped Forest Sprite is actually better than the unupped one in the upped list . Jenkar did a run and that was his mod . I've used that mod since that run .
Post by: koolvince09 on June 13, 2013, 12:44:20 am
Post by: Keeps on June 14, 2013, 02:25:43 am
Post by: BunKeR on June 17, 2013, 03:14:59 pm
Can this deck work without the shards, if so, what would you replace them with?
Part of this deck works because of the shards. However, you have enough quanta to substitute a steal/improved steal for one of them short term until a third is obtained.
When I built this deck I started with 3 SoFo and 2 Gravity Pull as the bone build . The entire deck is built around that ideal . Substituting out 1-3 SoFo wouldn't be the best idea . Keeps is right about the Steal , its going to be easier to use than adding another Fire card [defrag] . You can't use Pulv because your already running 2 weapons .
Post by: weaseltime on October 29, 2013, 05:28:57 pm
Post by: Keeps on November 14, 2013, 01:52:31 am
A very nice Silver/Gold farmer...
I went a 100% in 10 rounds of silver and 80% in 10 rounds of Gold.
Good job BunKer
Post by: BunKeR on November 14, 2013, 03:02:43 am
So I decided to give this a round.
A very nice Silver/Gold farmer...
I went a 100% in 10 rounds of silver and 80% in 10 rounds of Gold.
Good job BunKer
Thanks ! I'm surprised you had such good luck in Silver tho , when I tested I went 4 straight losses and basically stopped tracking stats !
I'll have to do a recent 50 run again and see if the current Arena is somehow easier to run thru .
Cheers .
Post by: Keeps on November 14, 2013, 03:56:15 am
Primary trick that works is to grav force a SoFo for blocking a lot of incoming damage and infinite PC. Let them keep a creature on the board, until you can lock them down totally. Don't kill off SoFo until you have 2nd, kill off those for the blackholes to finish recovering damage for chance at EM.
Post by: BunKeR on November 30, 2013, 06:09:51 am
2nd Testing Unupped Gravitybow vs Bronze
45-5 , 16EM , 12.08 average TTW
#w/l Record TTW EM Notes
1w 1-0 16 monoaether Dim SoW
2w 2-0 1 y 1hp FFQ
3w 3-0 17 monofire
4w 4-0 11 accel voodoo
5w 5-0 15 aether dim sanc SPIN
6w 6-0 16 y 1pillar vs monoaether
7w 7-0 11 y fire/life rush
8w 8-0 15 close call vs lycan rush
9w 9-0 14 y fat rainbow
10w 10-0 2 y 12hp Fire SPIN
11w 11-0 19 close call vs Psiontal
12w 12-0 7 Aether Dims
13w 13-0 10 Gravity Time
14w 14-0 17 Immo Phoenix
15l 14-1 crushed by lightnings+mindflayer
16w 15-1 14 close call vs rainbow lycan
17w 16-1 12 monofire
18w 17-1 12 y death rainbow
19l 17-2 1pillar vs wings shockwave
20w 18-2 10 time rainbow
21w 19-2 15 Entro/Water Freeze
22w 20-2 15 y monotime
23w 21-2 9 closecall vs Airbow + shocks
24w 22-2 11 monodark SPIN
25w 23-2 12 close call vs monodeath rush
26w 24-2 13 y +1turn4EM vs entro
27w 25-2 10 y water/life spirits
28w 26-2 9 poisonbow
29w 27-2 18 thunderstorm shockwave SPIN
30l 27-3 psiontal lightnings
31w 28-3 16 y monolife adrenaline
32w 29-3 11 rank11 monodeath
33w 30-3 15 y monogravity nymph
34w 31-3 8 air/light stall
35w 32-3 16 y +1turn4EM death life duo SPIN
36w 33-3 16 close call vs earthrush+rt
37w 34-3 11 aether/dark dims
38w 35-3 14 fire/water steam machine
39w 36-3 11 y aether/nova mindgate
40w 37-3 13 aether dim immortals SPIN
41w 38-3 15 arsen flying bow
42w 39-3 12 grabbow
43w 40-3 11 y monowater tears + QP
44w 41-3 11 y aether dim dragons
45l 41-4 devtal + dims , misplay
46w 42-4 8 airbow shockwave
47w 43-4 2 y 1hp death
48w 44-4 11 fire dragon rush
49w 45-4 12 death plague
50l 45-5 entro rush + chaos
1w 1-0 16 monoaether Dim SoW
2w 2-0 1 y 1hp FFQ
3w 3-0 17 monofire
4w 4-0 11 accel voodoo
5w 5-0 15 aether dim sanc SPIN
6w 6-0 16 y 1pillar vs monoaether
7w 7-0 11 y fire/life rush
8w 8-0 15 close call vs lycan rush
9w 9-0 14 y fat rainbow
10w 10-0 2 y 12hp Fire SPIN
11w 11-0 19 close call vs Psiontal
12w 12-0 7 Aether Dims
13w 13-0 10 Gravity Time
14w 14-0 17 Immo Phoenix
15l 14-1 crushed by lightnings+mindflayer
16w 15-1 14 close call vs rainbow lycan
17w 16-1 12 monofire
18w 17-1 12 y death rainbow
19l 17-2 1pillar vs wings shockwave
20w 18-2 10 time rainbow
21w 19-2 15 Entro/Water Freeze
22w 20-2 15 y monotime
23w 21-2 9 closecall vs Airbow + shocks
24w 22-2 11 monodark SPIN
25w 23-2 12 close call vs monodeath rush
26w 24-2 13 y +1turn4EM vs entro
27w 25-2 10 y water/life spirits
28w 26-2 9 poisonbow
29w 27-2 18 thunderstorm shockwave SPIN
30l 27-3 psiontal lightnings
31w 28-3 16 y monolife adrenaline
32w 29-3 11 rank11 monodeath
33w 30-3 15 y monogravity nymph
34w 31-3 8 air/light stall
35w 32-3 16 y +1turn4EM death life duo SPIN
36w 33-3 16 close call vs earthrush+rt
37w 34-3 11 aether/dark dims
38w 35-3 14 fire/water steam machine
39w 36-3 11 y aether/nova mindgate
40w 37-3 13 aether dim immortals SPIN
41w 38-3 15 arsen flying bow
42w 39-3 12 grabbow
43w 40-3 11 y monowater tears + QP
44w 41-3 11 y aether dim dragons
45l 41-4 devtal + dims , misplay
46w 42-4 8 airbow shockwave
47w 43-4 2 y 1hp death
48w 44-4 11 fire dragon rush
49w 45-4 12 death plague
50l 45-5 entro rush + chaos
Post by: MasN on April 25, 2014, 10:26:59 pm
Heavy Oty Variant.
Heavy SoFo Variant
(I think).(I forgot to save the deck.)