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Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1152782#msg1152782
« on: August 25, 2014, 06:41:44 pm »
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5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u2 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 74a 74a 7tb 7tb 7tb 7tb 7tb 80b 80b 80b 80b 8pu

Haven't seen this type of deck before, if it is already made then apologies.

EDIT: changed the nova to animate weapon and upped animate weapon to unupped, as majofa suggested.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 07:20:31 pm by worldwideweb3 »
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Offline Rutarete

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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1152786#msg1152786
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 06:58:33 pm »
Is the one Nova to help with the opening hand? I think I'll try the deck out later.
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Offline worldwideweb3Topic starter

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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1152787#msg1152787
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 07:00:32 pm »
I guess you could change the nova to supernova but because the extra quanta is not really needed, i just went with the nova.

EDIT: after a bit of testing, i realised another animate weapon is better than that nova
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 07:13:19 pm by worldwideweb3 »
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Offline majofa

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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1152789#msg1152789
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 07:17:01 pm »
Use Flying Weapons (the unupped version of Animate Weapon) since they are guaranteed to take :air quanta.

Offline Luminous

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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1152842#msg1152842
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2014, 12:28:15 pm »
Actually LStanley82 from the chat and I've been working on this for like a week and a half. We didn't post though, we were trying to use SoBras so the draw would be better and rush even faster. Though, SoBra is quite .. different in PvP.
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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1155655#msg1155655
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2014, 12:18:37 pm »
Actually LStanley82 from the chat and I've been working on this for like a week and a half. We didn't post though, we were trying to use SoBras so the draw would be better and rush even faster. Though, SoBra is quite .. different in PvP.
Pro: faster games. Less draw reliant, and easier to get the combo out.
Con: overall less effectiveness and less healing.
Vamp daggers are a heal per turn thing, rather then heal. Thus more turns=more effectiveness when using vamp daggers. But flying weapon is always a 2 card combo, so bravery works well for that.

Conclusion: Draw power is definitely something to toy around with in almost any deck, but before trying something out you can apply some logic and know that precognition or golden hourglass with a couple time towers is more effective draw power. <---Im all for bravery though cause its my favorite card.
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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1155657#msg1155657
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2014, 01:05:48 pm »
Vamp daggers are a heal per turn thing, rather then heal. Thus more turns=more effectiveness when using vamp daggers.

More damage makes the vamp daggers more effective, not turns. If SoB causes your daggers to attack for fewer turns it means that you killed your opponent faster. Either way, they deal and heal the same amount of damage (~100).

The problem with SoB is that both players draw the cards, but it costs the user one card and some quanta. You get a worse deal than your opponent gets. SoB is only worth including if you can get more value from the cards you draw than your opponent can, either by pulling off a powerful combo with them or by playing your cards much faster than they can using instant quanta generation like cremation or nova.

Back to the topic at hand, it looks like a fun deck :) Do you think it's worth swapping a Chaos Power for a Blessing? They average out to be the same but you'll always have the quanta to play blessing (if you have the quanta to play a dagger).

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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1155746#msg1155746
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 10:55:39 am »
If a vamp dagger is out for 5 turns, without any shields, it heals for 6*5=30. Now if its out for less, say 4 turns then it heals for 6*4=24. Thus it heals more over duration of time. Now the heal card, if you play 1 on turn 3, it wont have any bearing 2 turns later, cause it will have still healed for 20.
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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1155750#msg1155750
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 11:58:00 am »
If a vamp dagger is out for 5 turns, without any shields, it heals for 6*5=30. Now if its out for less, say 4 turns then it heals for 6*4=24. Thus it heals more over duration of time. Now the heal card, if you play 1 on turn 3, it wont have any bearing 2 turns later, cause it will have still healed for 20.

>Thus it heals more over duration of time because it deals more damage.

If you have a 6 attack flying dagger do you buff it to deal more damage, or do you keep the buff in your hand so the dagger won't kill your opponent as quick and it will stay on the board more turns? You buff it.

All I'm trying to say is that this:
more turns=more effectiveness
should be changed to "more damage=more effective".



Actually LStanley82 from the chat and I've been working on this for like a week and a half. We didn't post though, we were trying to use SoBras so the draw would be better and rush even faster. Though, SoBra is quite .. different in PvP.
Con: overall less effectiveness and less healing.

>overall less effectiveness and less healing is a statement that isn't true because SoB does not cause the daggers to deal less damage to your opponent. Because they deal the same amount of damage they don't heal less, and are not less effective.

Offline Rutarete

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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1155763#msg1155763
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 03:23:53 pm »
Tried this out in plat and gold leagues. Turns out, this deck is absolutely fun, powerful, and fast. Got me a few rarespins too :)

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Re: Chaotic twin daggers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=55532.msg1155824#msg1155824
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2014, 11:45:20 pm »
Bravery makes a game last shorter turns. If he didnt have bravery, then the daggers would have to deal more damage because of CC or healing from the opponent. Anyway, rather then continue trying to drive our points down each others throats lets drop the conversation between you and I on the daggers in the deck. Lets move to bravery. :D

Quote
The problem with SoB is that both players draw the cards, but it costs the user one card and some quanta. You get a worse deal than your opponent gets. SoB is only worth including if you can get more value from the cards you draw than your opponent can, either by pulling off a powerful combo with them or by playing your cards much faster than they can using instant quanta generation like cremation or nova.

This is partially wrong. Instant quanta generation is a great way to hone SoBs effectiveness yes, but the user gets a far better deal then the opponent. Both players draw cards, but the user is able to use those 2(3) cards draw immediately after using sob, while the other player has to wait for the user to finish his turn. Say you're dealing 50 damage, the opponent has 64 HP, you use sob and it gives the remaining 14 damage, with the first card drawn being a tower. The opponent's first card is the card they've been waiting for the whole game, maybe a purify or smth, to hard counter your deck. Since you kill the person though, they can't use that purify to hard counter you and get a comeback victory.

The quanta amount is very low, personally I think SoB is borderline OP and to balance it out it should cost 2 :fire upped, I tested that out by throwing in unupped ones into a upgraded deck, that idea seemed to balance it out quite well imho. With SoB you draw 2(3) cards in one turn, rather then 1 from any other means of draw power. Since the cost is 1, you can run it off mark no problem. Both players draw the cards.. thats a problem? Uhhh... that leaves for 2 whole new deck strategies! Against arena it can stop your opponents double draw advantage, same against AI4 and FGs. It can negate other's draw power via hourglass as well. Filling up their hands so much they don't have space for the hourglass's drawpower, nor do they have the quanta to play the hourglass's along with the rest of their cards. Since turns are sped up as well, the one turn it takes to start using hourglass makes it at a disadvantage.

Then of course theirs always speeding up deck out decks. Deck out decks are known to stall out, but they just need the right cards fast enough depending on their opponents. Bravery gets them their cards fast, and since less turns will go by, the less total amount of damage the opponent will do to you. Say you're running a bravery/miracle/stone skin deck (you can power the earth off gnome riders, the fire of mark, and the light off towers) All you do to deck the opponent out is stall through sheer HP. They're doing 50 damage a turn, with bravery thats 3 less turns of damaging you they can do. That essentially is worth 150 points of damage you would have taken. (throw in a couple dragons to make the opponents play their hands)

You will always get the advantage of using bravery not only for being able to lay those 2(3) cards instantly before your opponent can react to them individually, but your deck will be tailored to have more quanta production if it doesnt have instant quanta generation. The opponents deck will not however, thus their quanta will be strained. The hardest duels against bravery (when not using instant quanta generation) is when the opponent hard counters them with sanct, or uses quanta denial, like black hole and discord for more of a soft counter.

Conclusion: SoB is always worth it if you're not going to extreme measures for that little bit of quanta, and the mark is rather essential to really make bravery feel worth it compared to precog or sundial. For deciding what draw power you should use, to achieve highest effectiveness, think does the main cards of your deck be more effective over duration of turns or not, then decide are you stalling really hard or not, if so you'd probably want hourglass, if not then sundial. If you're deck isnt for 20+ turns, then definitely look at precognition and forget about hourglass imho. Sundial if its a OTK.

To me, to make sure this doesnt turn into a yelling match, try out precognitions and bravery, see which you like more since its your deck. With precogs, you can mindliessly play silences too, but often can be used strategically to shut down the opponent. More able to choose what turn you silence on if you have precogs rather then braveries. I feel since its a healing deck, where the opponent wont be gaining 3 cards to overcome the 6 healing from a dagger you'd be having more effectiveness with the daggers healing and a higher WR against ai4.

Im not one to bark with no bite, I will prove in terms of WR vs AI4 that precogs>braveries for this deck. Cant misunderstand pure statistics like that, and I somewhat feel potsie misunderstood me. Just name the amount of games you'd be satisfied with afda. I'll then have to judge wether in my schedual I'll be doing the games during war (idk about that, havnt entered in a war) before war or after war.
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