(1.24) CC? Why bother?

[JotS3]

Miracle is usually not needed. A feral bond is useful only if your queen is already out.
Shards you already use. Anyway, since the deck is larger than 30, you can simply omit miracle.

Wha?!?

Miracle might not be needed to win, but it greatly increases chance of Elemental Master. Bond also is not needed, but it about triples chance of Elemental Master and guarentees Elemental Master when used in conjunction with Miracle.

You might not need them to squeek out a win, or even obtain elemental master, but if you want consistant elemental victories you play them. Besides, it takes out all the math and careful playing to achieve elemental master by having pulvy do the final hit. It's a no brainer, really.

[Nume]

Its a matter of perspective/goals. Some people prefer getting more EM's, but perhaps losing more often/winning slower. Others prefer to leave out cards like miracle/bond that dont help a lot with victory rate and can actually slow you down, in favor of just winning more/faster games even without EM. Its just 2 different choices, neither is absolutely better, its up to whoevers doing it.

[JotS3]

Its a matter of perspective/goals. Some people prefer getting more EM's, but perhaps losing more often/winning slower. Others prefer to leave out cards like miracle/bond that dont help a lot with victory rate and can actually slow you down, in favor of just winning more/faster games even without EM. Its just 2 different choices, neither is absolutely better, its up to whoevers doing it.

    

In maybe 50 wins agains FG's that I have had with this deck, the miracle was necessary for about 10... just to stay alive long enough to get victory (meaning they were not elemental masteries). I have never once drawn the miracle and said, Oh crap, now the FG is going to win because I drew this lousy thing.

Bond is purely an EM card in most instances, since I rarely get an early FFQ.

In either event, 1 miracle doesn't slow you down.

The inclusion of one miracle and one bond does not hurt this deck's winning percentage, it just ensures you get more EM and therefore more electrum. Also, I don't know if rolls are effected by elemental masteries, but I seem to win cards a LOT more often with EM's than when I take damage. Could just be coincidence, but in either case there is a right and a wrong way to play this and taking out the miracle is not the right way at all. It means you win less games, not more. Playing without bond is optional, but again it means less EM's and thus less electrum.

[genraenera]

After trying out Dragoon's version on page 19, I too believe that there are too many shards in the original build, and that precogs can be very useful.  I'm currently using Dragoon's version, except with one less precog and one hourglass, and I think its a good compromise.  The deck benefits from the speed of the precogs, plus knowing whats in the opponents hand is often invaluable.  But it also has the one hourglass if a lot of drawing is needed.  The exact deck is shown below:

Code: [Select]

6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6rn 6rn 6rn 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u7 6u7 77f 77f 77i 7dq 7dq 7gp 7gp 7k2 7n3 7q5 7qb 7qb 7qb 80h 80h 80i
As far as the miracle and bond debate goes, all it takes is a miracle and a bit of adding and multiplying to figure out how to em without a bond if you just miracled.  The bond seems unnecessary, but the miracle is greatly needed.

[Nume]

Meh to have the miracle you either have to have an extra card, reducing your odds of getting the cards you need, or worse replace another more useful card. By the time I have 12 light quanta, I'm generally in control, so the miracle really is not necessary. All it does is make EM's easier, combined with a bond. I dont use either, because 5 healing per turn is much better than 1-2 which is what I'd get from bond, and already explained miracle. Again though, its just a matter of opinion. If you prefer to use the miracle/bond, thats your choice , and will probably work out similar so yeah its just a matter of opinion.

[xdude]

Meh to have the miracle you either have to have an extra card, reducing your odds of getting the cards you need, or worse replace another more useful card. By the time I have 12 light quanta, I'm generally in control, so the miracle really is not necessary. All it does is make EM's easier, combined with a bond. I dont use either, because 5 healing per turn is much better than 1-2 which is what I'd get from bond, and already explained miracle. Again though, its just a matter of opinion. If you prefer to use the miracle/bond, thats your choice , and will probably work out similar so yeah its just a matter of opinion.

Actually, I'm quite positive the Miracle is very useful. It's a survival card. And, as this deck does have lots of quanta, it's very often very useful, Also, what would you like to draw instead of it? The 3rd HG? The 2nd Perma?

[Nume]

Yes, yes, or any other card thats in deck.

[JotS3]

Yes, yes, or any other card thats in deck.

Nume, you are being unreasonable. EM is better for score, better for rolls (in my experience) better for electrum, and there have been countless games where I needed the miracle to win. With the miracle in you have a better winning percent period. With the bond you have an even greater likliehood of EM. Both make sense.

[sSethia]

Yes, yes, or any other card thats in deck.

I have become convinced that Nume has never played this deck. He is a troll.

I don't see how he's a troll; he's just trying to prove his point on how Miracle isn't really needed in the deck.

I actually agree with him. Most initial FG rushes that are fast enough to kill you take a very little amount of time to execute. When that happens you will most likely have not drawn a Miracle. Even if you've drawn a Miracle, you probably won't have the 12 to play it. By the time you've actually drawn a Miracle and have the 12 , you should already have out the Permafrost, Antimatter, and Shard combo out.

[Nume]

Lmao... I play almost nothing but this deck. Look back a few pages... I'm not the only person
 who prefers the deck without miracle. The original change was to take out miracle and put in
 PA. The version I use is
 

Code: [Select]

6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u7 6u7 71c 77f 77f 77i 7ak 7dq 7dq 7gp 7q5 7q5 7q5 80h 80h 80iThough I will say I was thinking you were saying would I rather draw 1 of my 2 permafrosts
than miracle, which is why I responded yes. Theres no reason it would have to be my 2nd
that I drew instead of the miracle.
Edit: Not sure why the formatting is being weird but hopefully looks better now. Also, I
actually use a jade shield and permafrost instead of 2 permafrosts, though I'm not sure if
thats better or worse. So far I like it but yeah.
Edit2: Also thanks sSethia for supporting my point. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[MrBlonde]

For the most part i agree with Nume. Miracle really only helps for EM (which i'm at 75% now). It does help on the rare occasion for survival but it rarely is the difference between me surviving or not. I think it's made a difference in maybe 3 games or so in the 160 i've played.

To truly see the difference in winrate someone would have to play tons of games with both versions.

[Dragoon1140]

After trying out Dragoon's version on page 19...

Don't forget, I am the 1140th Dragoon.  There is another Dragoon, and he is the 1st.