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Offline nensuru

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1020282#msg1020282
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2012, 06:52:01 am »
Gonna finish it later

Standings Round 6:

Player
Leftovers
Pillar
Bronze
Silver
Gold
Marks
:electrum
Chessy11161(20) 10  (32) 12 (7) 7 ### ### 4211,8
majofa1(8 ) 4 ### (12) 3 3 ### 2009,2
deuce2281(23) 10(27) 12(6) 2 ### 13893,4
nensuru35(13)(30)(9) 21 ### 1
Dragoon21(19) 10(42) 12(8 ) 16 ### 2
Spielkind7(13) 7(26) 1(11) 20(2) 41
Elbirn1(15) 10(28) 12(15) 12 ###2
Shantu1(21) 10(29) 12(10) 28### 1
Zso_Zso12(12) 9(13) 9(7) 6 ### ###
Vangelios20(9) 9(4) 1(11) 11 ### 2
Fippe94
Annamall

Notes:

The point of this table is to know how much all your bought packs worth on money, so i am not taknig the buy prices in consideration when calculating the final :electrum.

( ) means that these packs were brought before the common/pillar price change.

I made some  math to determinate how much a foil card worth taking in consideration the chances of rarity of each card, but i may be wrong... someone who is good at math check if i did it right please

Spoiler for math:
hypothetical situation:

h pack: 5 commons, 5 uncommons, 1 foil.
you have 1/2 chance of getting a foil common (4 :electrum) and 1/2 chance of getting a foil uncommon (10 :electrum)

1/2 * 4 = 2
1/2 * 10 = 5
2 + 5 = 7

7 is the "number in the middle" of 10 and 4. This means that for each h pack you have 7 :electrum woth of foil card.

taking it in consideration i did the same for the packs:

bronze pack: 7 commons, 3 uncommons, 1 foil
you have 7/10 chance of getting a foil common (4 :electrum) and 3/10 chance of getting a foil uncommon (10 :electrum)

7/10 * 4 = 2,8
3/10 * 10 = 3
2,8 + 3 = 5,8

5,8 :electrum is how much each bronze pack worth on foil cards.

How much each pack worth:

(Bronze/Pillar): 43,2 :electrum
Bronze/Pillar: 34,8 :electrum
(Silver): 72 :electrum
Silver: 66 :electrum
(Gold): 100,8 :electrum
Gold: 97,2 :electrum

The starter pack worth 4 (bronze packs): 172,8 :electrum. This value is added to final :electrum

Foil marks count as 2 marks.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 09:02:39 pm by nensuru »

Offline majofaTopic starter

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1022234#msg1022234
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2012, 05:12:53 pm »
Things to look forward to next time this event is run:

- Each player will have their own googledoc (similar to WoE/War) where they have a list of their cards. Selling cards will be done with a simple click of a button.
- Elements will be better balanced: As in, no more everyone playing monoFire.
- Card packs will be better balanced: Gold packs will give more rares and no Marks from lower level packs.
- Buying packs will also be automated.
- Better NPC balance.
- And more, determined by your feedback....

Offline Elbirn

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1022246#msg1022246
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2012, 05:41:35 pm »
I love the sound of all of that. Except for the bit about automated pack buying. As amazing as that sounds and as much as I'd like that, how do you intend on stopping players from buying/selling/buying/selling over and over again in the same round to generate moar moniez / get the cards they want?

Thoughts.
This event wasn't very fun at the beginning. Playing with the equivalent of AI0 decks against each other was boring and frustrating. Later on in the event, once I had a strategy going and PvP finally seemed to become interesting, it was the homework effect that really wore this event down for me. I simply didn't look forward to spending around an hour organizing my cards, selling them, then posting what I was buying/selling.

You've already tackled the homework effect with your planned updates, so kudos. As for the frustrations at the beginning, I can't really think of a way to fix that.

You mention a better balance of elements; I would like to mention that darkness (The element around which I planned on all my strategies revolving around...Darkness nubs 4evaaa) and death are very difficult to play in this event. In 8 rounds, I never got a full set of devourers, and it took all 8 of those rounds to get just 3 black dragons. All of the trademark darkness cards (Steal, Dusk Mantle, Vamp stilleto) were made rare/ultra rare, and that pretty much made acquiring them impossible early on. Unupped darkness doesn't have many hitters, and with the stalling capability gone... *shrug* As for death..I think I got 2 or 3 bone dragons and 1 mummy. And a bunch of skeletons. No other real hitters. If making a mono dark was difficult, a mono death was impossible. xD

Speaking of me never completing my set of devourers, I would have killed for a method to trade cards with other players, or to buy individual cards. I would have spent any amount of money, no questions asked, just to get my goddamned 6 devourers. Even till the end of the event, I was very stubbornly buying as many bronze/silver packs as I could in an attempt to get the low level cards I needed.

A method to upgrade cards would have also been very lovely, but I'm not certain how that would be balanced. Maybe remove foil cards from packs all together, but add the option to upgrade any given card for a price. Or maybe defeating a PvP opponent also gives you a voucher to upgrade any card you wish.

Mark cards should be removed entirely. A PvP event shouldn't be determined by RNG.

As for NPC battles, I would discard them entirely in favor of another PvP match. The NPC's didn't enjoy being NPC's, and no one really enjoyed searching for one to battle. Discarding them in the last few rounds was a good move on your part.

I'd like to see a more strict timeline on rounds, but also making the rounds long enough for everyone to do what they had to do. I think 1 week per round is fair. If someone can't get their games/purchases done in 7 days, that's on them. This last round was supposed to end 5 days ago but didn't due to stragglers (myself included). I was honestly hoping you'd tell me off and move on to round 9.

I know I sound like I'm complaining a lot, but I generally enjoyed this event, I really did. I liked the idea of being a newbie, buying real life packs of cards and playing against his friends, it was a nice throwback. It just needs some improvements. ^_^

Thanks to you, maj, and to Shrink and justa as well, and to all of our NPC's putting up with us using them as punching bags, and to my competitors. All of you are awesome sauce.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 05:51:30 pm by Elbirn »
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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1022313#msg1022313
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2012, 11:50:11 pm »
I'd like to make another suggestion for next time:

Make the starter packs 60 cards (instead of 40) consisting only of 3 elements (instead of 4), so two bronze level packs of 10 from each element. That would give a much better chance to build something reasonable for the first round, thus reducing the initial frustration.
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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1022314#msg1022314
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2012, 11:52:30 pm »
The point was, that everyone started with junk.

Offline justaburd

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1022374#msg1022374
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2012, 03:59:32 am »
The problem was that most of the junk ended up being pretty useless. It was at least a forced trio with 1 pend of each element at the start, with no guarantee of it getting much better very soon.
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Offline nensuru

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1022414#msg1022414
« Reply #102 on: December 15, 2012, 07:17:08 am »
- Easer ways to get pends
Elemental pillar packs that come with 1 pillar and pend of the element you choosed.

- Better starter pack
Zso_Zso sugestions looks good.

- No npcs
Just give the free gold.

- Trade system
Maybe this could work with super rares (dimensional shield, bonewall) only and only one trade per round.

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1022432#msg1022432
« Reply #103 on: December 15, 2012, 08:09:34 am »
The problem was that most of the junk ended up being pretty useless. It was at least a forced trio with 1 pend of each element at the start, with no guarantee of it getting much better very soon.

this is how r2r works?! plz dont start again this useless discussion... a game where you have to start from rag have to be pain! ^^

Suggestion: pack bought should have at least some stuff from the elements you choose... this way you chosse should have an influence, so buying 10 pillar packs with 1!!! fire pend works baaaad!!!
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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1022481#msg1022481
« Reply #104 on: December 15, 2012, 03:12:44 pm »
Things to look forward to next time this event is run:

- Each player will have their own googledoc (similar to WoE/War) where they have a list of their cards. Selling cards will be done with a simple click of a button.
This will be good to help with the tediousness and hopefully to lessen mistakes. I'm sure everyone, myself included, has made mistakes in this event just because of the sheer number of cards and the pain of trying to organize them.

Quote
- Elements will be better balanced: As in, no more everyone playing monoFire.
I do think that the division of cards (common, uncommon, rare, ultra-rare) could be better balanced. It may be better to try to balance the division of cards based on their value rather than trying to make sure there are equal number of cards from each element in each category (i.e. having 3 rares from each element, 5 uncommons from each element, etc.). When you try to distribute the cards evenly by element, people will favor elements which have a higher percentage of good cards since they can get good cards at lower tiers.

Just one example of imbalance is Procrastination Shield and Dusk Mantle. How is it that Dusk is a rare and Procrastination a common? They both on average cause the opponent to do damage only half the time. I realize there are slight differences beyond that, but enough for a 2-grade difference?

Quote
- Card packs will be better balanced: Gold packs will give more rares and no Marks from lower level packs.
Yes, Gold packs should definitely be buffed. I still think that their investment-to-return value shouldn't be as good as Bronze and Silver, but you should get something more to help balance the value proposition (more rares, more foils, or something).

As for Marks, what is the purpose of having these? Is it just to make things more random? I think most of us prefer the game not to be decided based on who was lucky enough to get Mark cards regardless of what packs they may be restricted to. If Marks are designed to be a kind of wild bonus to help struggling players, then I think the possibility of getting a Mark should be restricted to the bottom X number of players.

Also, you might want to consider making Quantum Pillars uncommons instead of rares, at least if you plan on giving them in Pillar packs still. Pillar packs were definitely the best way to make money in this event.

Quote
- Better NPC balance.
I don't mind playing NPCs, but if we do use them again, I think that 1) they should increase in difficulty as the event progresses and 2) NPC players should be able to adjust their deck. I think that was the biggest complaint I heard from NPCs: it was just boring to play the same decks over and over. I also wouldn't mind if we tossed out NPCs and did more PvP.


Some other random thoughts and brainstormings:

I liked how the earlier rounds forced us to use some of the lesser used cards like the various element shields, weaker CC cards, and weaker creatures with meh abilities.

Along with that, I like how the meta evolved as people got more cards and better cards. Majofa mentioned that a lot of people used Mono Fire. I agree, it was used a good bit. But I personally thought that starting in Round 6 or 7, Mono Fire started losing it's advantage just as Maxwell's Demon lost it's edge starting in Round 4 or 5. As people started to get bigger card pools with better cards and more copies of cards, they began to be able to field decks that could beat the earlier strong decks.

I liked the choice of choosing more mediocre cards (uncommons) to broaden your card pool or choosing fewer higher-caliber cards (rares, super-rares). Unfortunately, most of these higher-caliber cards weren't useful until you got more of the mediocre cards to broaden your card pool and fill in the meat of a deck. I don't think there were enough rounds to make investing in Gold packs worth it. If it stretched out another 10 rounds, then yeah, maybe it'd make sense to buy Gold packs to help give you an edge.

I think that there should be a bigger difference between the amounts you get for winning and losing. In the beginning, I think that 100 to 50 is good. But I think that difference should increase by 10 to 25 every round. This will make winning matches a bigger deal than just working the system to eke out a net positive from buying and selling.

What if you took the Pillar, Bronze, Silver, and Gold packs and subdivided them into 3 more kinds: Rainbow, Quad, and Mono. Rainbow packs would give cards from any element or other; they would be the cheapest. Quad packs would give cards from only four elements (these elements can be pre-set or chosen by the player depending on which you think is better); they would be more expensive. And Mono packs would give cards only from 1 element of their choice; they would be the most expensive. So you can choose to get an early advantage by focusing on 1 element, or you can go for a later advantage by building a bigger card pool at the expense of weaker decks in the early rounds.

Spoiler for for example:
Rainbow Pillar pack - 8 random pillars, 4 random pends - 30 :electrum
Quad Pillar pack - 6 pillars from 4 elements, 3 pends from 4 elements - 40 :electrum
Mono Pillar pack - 4 pillars from 1 element, 2 pends from 1 element - 60 :electrum
You would probably need to adjust the ratio and costs. This is just a quick example of what I mean.

I'm not sure what to think about foil cards. I liked them and they added more interest to the event. But by putting one in every pack, it encourages buying as many of the cheapest packs as possible. This also worked out well because a lot of the Uncommon creatures became much better if they were upgraded and you could get the most uncommon creatures by buying the cheapest packs. If you're wanting to encourage more people to consider buying Silver and Gold next time, you'll need to do something about this. Maybe give two foil cards in Gold packs, one in Silver packs, and a 50% chance for a foil in bronze and pillar packs?

I'm sure there's more I could say, but I think my wall of text is big enough. I'll pass the mic to the next person.

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1023960#msg1023960
« Reply #105 on: December 20, 2012, 03:02:48 pm »
The problem was that most of the junk ended up being pretty useless. It was at least a forced trio with 1 pend of each element at the start, with no guarantee of it getting much better very soon.

this is how r2r works?! plz dont start again this useless discussion... a game where you have to start from rag have to be pain! ^^

Suggestion: pack bought should have at least some stuff from the elements you choose... this way you chosse should have an influence, so buying 10 pillar packs with 1!!! fire pend works baaaad!!!

The entire point is that it's not the way I think it should work. Otherwise the answer of this is how RTR works would go for your suggestion as well. And I'll thank you not to just dismiss my idea just because you don't agree.
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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1024302#msg1024302
« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2012, 03:41:32 pm »
Hey so the event is going on/ halted/ stopped? because I'd like to participate.

Offline Elbirn

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Re: Rags to Riches - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43797.msg1024334#msg1024334
« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2012, 05:37:53 pm »
Several months too late I'm afraid, the events over my friend. :P Don't worry, there's always new events and tournaments going on all the time, you'll get the next one.
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