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Offline Vangelios

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048586#msg1048586
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2013, 12:22:21 am »
Shards are not OP, is why? because I play and I won rounds without shards, and sometimes playing with shards I lost, happened between me and  dragonsdemesne some duels in BL, and tell you that some times I lost because I used shards, and some times I won because I used decks without shards, say the shards are OP is a concept completely wrong and contradictory, since decks without shards can beat decks with shards. and this are not infrequently of happens, is frequent.
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Offline Onizuka

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048613#msg1048613
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2013, 01:12:34 am »
By that logic, no card is OP.

And how is the fact that it is keeping in line a low reason? The majority of the people who qualified did not qualify where shards were used. Attempting to throw in shards where the majority have not won with using them is dumb, as even in leagues where they are used there have been long periods of time where league players would not play with shards.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 01:15:43 am by Onizuka »
You're just as selfish as I am. You're just not as good at it yet.

Offline Vangelios

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048629#msg1048629
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2013, 01:40:27 am »
By that logic, no card is OP.
yes I have to agree, but if you create a logic for OP cards, so there would be only shards OP, but also some non shards cards,  we have some non shards cards that are OP, and more OP than it half of the shards.

And how is the fact that it is keeping in line a low reason? The majority of the people who qualified did not qualify where shards were used. Attempting to throw in shards where the majority have not won with using them is dumb,
well, I know that this competition does not allow shards, but is just a feedback,
as even in leagues where they are used there have been long periods of time where league players would not play with shards.
yes, but things change, I suggest a classic championship, where they can play the nostalgic.
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Offline deuce22

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048645#msg1048645
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2013, 02:29:17 am »
I can't understand half the things Vangelios says... [language barrier]

Offline Vangelios

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048654#msg1048654
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2013, 02:46:28 am »
I can't understand half the things Vangelios says... [language barrier]
I really think it I complicate a bit, but in summary, I said that the shards are as OP as some cards that are not shards.
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Offline blarp

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048661#msg1048661
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2013, 02:59:47 am »
I just want to say that because some people qualified for this by playing events where shards were banned, doesn't mean that they shouldn't be expected to also know how to play with shards. Just as I'm being forced to play with unupped cards, playing with shards will be similarly different. (although I think to a much smaller effect)

Also when I think of WC I think much more of an unrestricted system than an event with weird rules. I feel like this should be a set of unrestricted normal tournaments where players are slowly eliminated.

Winning this event no matter the rules will be impressive of course, but world champion seems like it has more specific connotations.
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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048705#msg1048705
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2013, 04:27:40 am »
Your latter posts are much more effective, blarp. I'm legitimately impressed that you can make a good argument for something I and other veteran community members oppose.

It is indeed true that a metagame consisting of shards is more diverse with more potential. It would be ideal if everyone in this event had every card; that would indeed make for a better competition.

But you have to combine metagame diversity with fairness in order to maximize entertainment and validity. Ideally we would have a very diverse metagame that is fair to every player, but this is not an option in the practical world.

Allowing shards would increase metagame diversity, but at a severe cost to fairness. The event would no longer test skill as much, and it would increasingly become a test of how much a player has grinded. Which really shouldn't be a factor for the PvP World Championship. Maybe if this was the PvP + AI World Championship, you could allow shards, but this competition is designed to focus solely on PvP and not AI griding. Overall, the slight increase to diversity by adding shards is not worth the decrease in fairness.

Now, look at the upgraded card rule. Allowing upgrades significantly increases metagame diversity at the cost of only a slight decrease in fairness, because most people have enough electrum and upgraded cards to play whatever deck they want.

Allowing shards would cause too large a decrease in fairness to be worth the increase in metagame diversity to be worth it. Upgrades, however, would be worth it.

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Offline blarp

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048733#msg1048733
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2013, 05:33:26 am »
Maybe I'm overestimating the people in the event in terms of grindedness. This isn't a very effective place to ask but who here is participating in WC where allowing shards would disadvantage you significantly? Not because you don't know how to play with shards, but because you're missing a significant number of the "popular" shards like SoSac and Sofo and Sofr and SoR and SoBe?
I just assumed basically everyone participating had basically a full set of the important shards.

If it's actually a problem then there might be something to the argument to ban shards, but I just don't think that's really the case. Not sure though.


It's been my experience that getting a set of rare weapons is much more difficult than a set of shards btw.


I'd just really like to be able to run decks like eternitude. Maybe just unban the older shards: SoG, SoD, SoR?
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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048736#msg1048736
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2013, 05:46:22 am »
Should we just play League Rules and allow every card??

Then you wouldn't even have to build any new decks.....

Offline blarp

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048738#msg1048738
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2013, 06:02:34 am »
Should we just play League Rules and allow every card??

Then you wouldn't even have to build any new decks.....

You're probably joking, but personally I'd love that. Although I do see the point in how making new decks helps determine skill levels but it's not like I didn't have to make those decks at some point anyway.

Also if you've decided to make it so that each group basically decides on the meta, why ban shards in advance? It was hard for me to even think of 5 cards I wanted to ban in particular and I'm sure people would have room to put down Sosac on their list.
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Offline Onizuka

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048747#msg1048747
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2013, 07:01:10 am »
I'm playing because

1) I'm greedy and want the marks.
2) I don't have to deal with shards. I just don't like shards, not because they're OP or something, I just do not like them.
3) The games should be fun, assuming average RNG for all. Shards being in it is directly not fun, for me.

Shards vs weapons: Weapons are probably by far easier to get than shards without paying for them. You get one for free, you can get them from AIs other than arena. Maybe because so many arena decks use them if you can beat them when they use it you can win them on a similar rate.

Also factoring in that the large majority of the qualifiers and probably the current players played when T50 was around, AKA free weapons for everyone. Weapons and normal rares are 99% probably not a problem for any of the current qualifiers/players.

You're just as selfish as I am. You're just not as good at it yet.

Offline blarp

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Re: PvP World Championship - RULES https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47257.msg1048750#msg1048750
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2013, 08:10:09 am »
That's my point about shards.... Everyone already has them so arguing that it unlevels the playing field is irrelevant.

I think shards are fun.


Personally, I just finished getting my weapons like two weeks ago. Had finished shards for months.
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