Elements PvP Tournament - Suggestions and Feedback

[Suguri]

great tournament last saturday, very well organized.
congrats

[Rastafla]

I say thank you on behalf of all the TO's Jumbalumba Killsdazombies and me.

[7wavemaster]

isnt that pretty obvious.  The whole point is to try to win other then have fun.

[Mntoothpick]

I think tournaments are a good idea to bring people together.

A few quick thoughts:

I do think that organizers should never compete in the tournament they are organizing (otherwise the entire thing loses its perceived legitimacy).

I think the organizers should receive some standards compensation for their time (such as electrum) in light of not being able to participate. 

(It may also be that a just for fun round could be reserved at the end of the tournament in which the organizer is allowed to play the tournament winner in a no stakes round so that the organizer gets some play time.)

Participating in the tournaments takes a great deal of time and preparation.  Unfortunately, preliminary rounds reduce the opportunity to test many of the decks people may make and hence reduce the incentive to build a lot of decks.

Maybe create a losers bracket for people who want to play their decks out a few more rounds in case of early elimination.  After all, if you have 5 decks and only get to play one of them, its rather disappointing.  You can't help but think you should have gone with deck 3 instead of deck 1, but you'll never really know.... LOL.

My guess is problems with desyncing would "mysteriously" disappear if competitions were not for actual rewards.  Unfortunately, electrum/special prizes might bring out the worst in people.

It's hard to solve this problem.  For me, the competition is "something to do."  Although I have two somewhat modest 4th play finishes, I have never taken the time to actually cash my prizes. 

I suppose you could at least see what happens if you hold a tournament without prizes.  If turnout is too low, you can always switch back.  I keep focusing on the social aspects of the tournament rather than the actual prizes.  I enjoy the competitions and seeing what great ideas people come up with.

You could also create stage "eligibility requirements" in which your stage gives you some additional bonus which is modest.  So if you go from stage 1 to stage 2, you qualify for an extra oracle spin or something like that, but something that applies broadly but is not a huge incentive.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Rastafla]

I think tournaments are a good idea to bring people together.

A few quick thoughts:

I do think that organizers should never compete in the tournament they are organizing (otherwise the entire thing loses its perceived legitimacy).

I think the organizers should receive some standards compensation for their time (such as electrum) in light of not being able to participate.

Yes I agree to this but the reason why we are allowed to compete is that there is no reward/pay/whatever for organizing because if there was such a compensation people would think it was unfair that only the TOs in the staff would get it. After all we only do the job one day per week. No matter what we got it would either be a) pointless or b) people would complain that it was too much/good.

Participating in the tournaments takes a great deal of time and preparation.  Unfortunately, preliminary rounds reduce the opportunity to test many of the decks people may make and hence reduce the incentive to build a lot of decks.

Maybe create a losers bracket for people who want to play their decks out a few more rounds in case of early elimination.  After all, if you have 5 decks and only get to play one of them, its rather disappointing.  You can't help but think you should have gone with deck 3 instead of deck 1, but you'll never really know.... LOL.

The previous answer to this have been and will always be, I'm quoting, "Do NOT lose" this holds true in basically all events. Want to test things? Make sure you win as the winner takes it all.

My guess is problems with desyncing would "mysteriously" disappear if competitions were not for actual rewards.  Unfortunately, electrum/special prizes might bring out the worst in people.

This may be a problem in the first round and/or prelim but remember, if you cant provide a screenshot of your opponent desyncing (warning msg during the last extra 10 sec have to show) YOU lose. Saying "I desynced" or "you desynced" wont help you, because BOTH of you desynced, at a desync both players see the opponent desync and you both are to provide a screenshot. Because if you cant provide such a screen you obviously did something you shouldn't have done.

This is only really enforced later on (round 2) due to time but is happens earlier too. The reason is mostly because people (newbies) are lax about taking screens (dont know how, dont know where or when or are simply stupid). I do every match and I save them just in case. One never knows.

It's hard to solve this problem.  For me, the competition is "something to do."  Although I have two somewhat modest 4th play finishes, I have never taken the time to actually cash my prizes.

I suppose you could at least see what happens if you hold a tournament without prizes.  If turnout is too low, you can always switch back.  I keep focusing on the social aspects of the tournament rather than the actual prizes.  I enjoy the competitions and seeing what great ideas people come up with.

Sponsored tournaments are something Zanzarino wanted or so I am told. And I think it is great, besides prizes make people show up and make time also people who really strive to compete, instead of a few just for fun people, and if you want, you could always talk to one of the PvP event staff and set one up yourself!

You could also create stage "eligibility requirements" in which your stage gives you some additional bonus which is modest.  So if you go from stage 1 to stage 2, you qualify for an extra oracle spin or something like that, but something that applies broadly but is not a huge incentive.

This requires coding and only Zanz can do something about that, go to Game Suggestions and Feedback (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,8.0.html) or email him at game.elements@gmail.com.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Thank you for taking time and writing your thoughts. Hopefully I've provided some insights to some of your thoughts.

[Sir Valimont]

Greetings Elements members.

I am fairly new around here -- meaning the forums -- although I actually found this game about 6 months ago and have been playing with some regularity. (I have 60K points, about 300 upgraded cards, 7 nymphs, just to give you an idea of how much I've played).

Two of my hobbies actually include BOTH Flash game design and board/card game design ... so a Flash card game is right up my alley. In fact I have been putting together my own Flash-based card game for the last year or so and will be launching the project in 3-4 months (this timing based on my day job). Searching for similar products, to get an idea of the market, is how I found Elements in the first place.

I thought I'd just give some background on me, and hope to get to know the community here a bit better. Seems like a good group of people. And the game itself is great too of course!

I wanted to put up a post on PvP tournaments. My impression is that they are going to get more and more popular as people realize they are the most reliable source for nymphs, and once there is better linkage from the game itself, etc.

A lot of folks are reticent to take advice from a newcomer and I understand that ... but there are some issues that it would improve the PvP experience to address. One issue in particular:

DESYNC-ing.

A desync is basically a result of a bad connection in a PvP game, where one player's computer has a spotty connection and the game goes offline. It can be majorly disruptive when a player has this happen frequently. It's not surprising that this is happening given that lots of folks are playing on weak connections and that lots of games are happening across oceans! (One nice thing about Elements is the international community of players).

Whether they like to admit it or not there are some USUAL SUSPECTS for desyncing. And that makes sense. Most people have a connection that doesn't cause a desync. Some people have bad connections. That is nothing against them, but they need to take RESPONSIBILITY for their own bad connections.

The current policy in PvP tournaments is that a desync should just result in a replayed game (unless someone is completely dominating and almost won). There are several problems with this policy; not the least of which is that it opens the door to cheating.

Earlier today, for example, I was in a PvP tournament in a best-of-1 preliminary round. My opponent had a bad draw, I had a good draw, and he desynced. After at least ten minutes of annoyance waiting around and trying to get things to work properly, we played again, only this time he had a perfect draw and mine was terrible. He ended up winning only because of that.

The fact is that this is completely unfair. I don't suspect this opponent of cheating necessarily, but it should not be the case that HIS bad connection causes me a loss.

The policy in tournaments -- and really in any form of competition between players online -- should be one that is as fair as possible, and which DOES NOT RELY on people's honesty. This is not because most people are cheaters -- it is simply because it is not fair to force players to play in a system where they HAVE to rely on the honesty of someone else.

I have never cheated at anything in my life. But it DISTURBS me that with the current PvP rules I could cheat to my great advantage very easily. I could easily force a desync every time I had a bad draw and get several chances to draw well. In turn this would enable me to build a deck that relies on good draws -- making it even harder to beat me. In the time it took my opponent to re-connect he also could have altered his deck slightly since he saw exactly what cards I had in the desynced game. Being able to customize your deck to beat your opponent WITHOUT HAVING EVEN PLAYED ONE GAME is not fair. Fixing up your deck after a game is much more fair.

My suggestion is that the rules be changed. Desyncing should be the responsibility of the player who desyncs. Yes in general something can go wrong and it should be forgiven once in a while -- but there are players out there who desync CONSTANTLY and they should either not be allowed to play in tournaments at all or they should have to forfeit when they desync. It is just not fair to everyone else to do things any other way -- EVEN IF 99% of players who desync are honest.

Perhaps the best policy would be that if you desync your opponent has the option to force a forfeit. Or perhaps they have the right to keep playing, only against AI -- and if they win, they win. Tell me what you think about this.

Please leave your comments below!

Cheers,

Sir Valimont

[Higurashi]

The game should be replayed unless someone is definitely about to win, just as it is now. Sure, if someone desyncs/times out so much they can't play, they should leave. I have only ever seen this happen once, and the person naturally left of their own volition. I've also never seen anyone being proven a cheater in the middle of a tournament, or seen conclusive proof thereof. Only accusations stemming from insecurity and entitlement.

As it is now, the rules cover what needs to be covered. Exceptions are handled in the situation, as this is the most flexible method. That's extremely important when organising the tournaments, since they create a lot of chaos.

[Sir Valimont]

Higurashi I think your response is fine and dandy until you refer to accusation of cheating as stemming from "insecurity and entitlement." That is utter nonsense and is as speculative as the accusation of cheating itself.

There is a legitimate concern here -- since it is quite possible, EASY even, to cheat by desyncing intentionally when given a bad draw. Today I lost a tournament 100% because the opponent had a bad connection; no other reason. I should not have to accept the probability that my opponent didn't cheat. I should be playing in a system where I don't have to make that assumption at all. That's how a good system would work.

Of course there is good reason for the current rules. But the fact is that desyncing is a problem caused by a minority of players, and it screws things up for everyone else. Those players should be held responsible. Not that it's a great crime; most of the time it's an inconvenience and nothing more. But it should NEVER be an open door for potential cheating, WHETHER OR NOT people actually cheat.

[Dragoon1140]

A desync is basically a result of a bad connection in a PvP game, where one player's computer has a spotty connection and the game goes offline. It can be majorly disruptive when a player has this happen frequently.

Actually, a desync occurs only when faulty data is sent to the server, regardless of internet connection.  Like the Fire Nymph bug that was fixed a while ago.  Before the fix, when a Fire Nymph was used, a desync occurred and both players saw different and weird things.  You are just disconnecting from your opponent.

[Sir Valimont]

A desync is basically a result of a bad connection in a PvP game, where one player's computer has a spotty connection and the game goes offline. It can be majorly disruptive when a player has this happen frequently.

Actually, a desync occurs only when faulty data is sent to the server, regardless of internet connection.  Like the Fire Nymph bug that was fixed a while ago.  Before the fix, when a Fire Nymph was used, a desync occurred and both players saw different and weird things.  You are just disconnecting from your opponent.

There are many ways desyncs can happen. If it's faulty data rather than connection strength, that's well and good. But it doesn't change the fact that certain players have it happen constantly while others have it happen never at all. That is not a fair situation for other players to have to deal with.

[Higurashi]

Clearly you think I referred to you and got butthurt. I did not. I haven't seen you accuse anyone, so it wouldn't make sense for me to do so to begin with. I go by my experience, and that's what it tells me. I'm naturally not going to name names. It has, however, nothing to do with speculation. Just experience.

Yes, you argued for that in your OP. We can't create a system like that as it would screw many of the players over. Timing out is very common in a large tournament such as the one we just played. You simply have to trust the player, like everyone else do. We accept that this is the case before we enter, because otherwise half the players would be eliminated before even one match had been played.

Nope, it's not a minority at all, and they can't be held responsible since they have nothing to do with it, either. I've played up to ten rematches because my opponent or I desynced or timed out (they are not the same thing). Here's the thing about desyncs: both players desync from the server, which means you will see strange stuff happen, and so will your opponent. Therefore it's rather impossible to tell whose connection is doing it, or if it's just the server (which is the most likely, as they are dodgy).

If you want to buy better servers, go ahead. Until then, it's a minor flaw we adapt to.
(yeah, we're actually getting upgraded right now, or so I hear)

[Dragoon1140]

But it doesn't change the fact that certain players have it happen constantly while others have it happen never at all. That is not a fair situation for other players to have to deal with.

Actually, it is pretty darn fair if everyone would chillax about the situation.  Rarely, if ever, does somebody actually disconnect (not desync, different words) from their opponent repeatedly and deliberately.  Nobody is really willing to risk that much just for a Nymph and a measly 5k electrum.  If the disconnections repeatedly happen over the course of thirty minutes, the host of the tournament will decide the victor, so it is of no matter.

If you don't like players disconnecting from games, take it like a man.