Elements PvP Tournament - Suggestions and Feedback

[dragono]

well yes i am demanding a big thing but in elements also add a tab called tournaments where we could click and see on going tournments and participate in them because my chat lag too much

[Dm]

My elements chat lags a lot too. There is no need to have a tab of tournaments going because you know when they're happening, they're always at the same time at the same day unless something important (For a example, take this christmas one) happens and changes the day.

You can also watch the games by going into spectate and getting both IGN's (In Game Name) of both PVP'ers to watch them fight.

[Blues]

I would like to see an archive for the winning decks of each tournament.

[Higurashi]

There are users who keep a private log of that. It's nothing I would ever make public, though. It would lessen the importance of deck-building skills when it comes to winning tourneys, as people could easily match tourney concepts and rip decks right off the archive.

[drogana]

in the 12/03 eastern tournament , some bug with dissipation shield and sanctuary occured , game keept desynch

with the curent rule => desynch and rematch until time limit and then coin toss

i can't came up with a rule that would avoid that , but if someone could think of an alternative , that would be a great inprovement

[dragonsdemesne]

Played in the 09/04/2011 western tourney and it went fairly well; was my first one.

In my second tourney, the 16/04/2011 western tournament, there were some issues with the challonge website and the chat where some people couldn't see things, or, in my case, it was lagging badly.  Not the fault of anyone, but just saying it caused some issues.

One major issue I did have though this week. I had one game where my opponent disconnected and then claimed he had four jade dragons.  I posted a screenshot of my opponent with an empty board except for feral bond and hope (due to Fire Storm, he/she was playing ray of light + hope), 7 cards in deck to my 27, and me with a full field of permanents, including a 23x bone wall.  The organizers almost made it go to a coin toss, even though it seems pretty clear that I was going to win.  See what you think: http://img857.imageshack.us/i/picg.png/  (we were both afw from chat playing the game, which is why they asked a couple times what our status was) (**s added to relevant lines)

[14:28:17] TStar: spiritkirinblade and dragonsdemesne what is the status on your match?
[14:28:38] SpikeSpiegel: ^^
[14:28:44] SpikeSpiegel: huge damage is huge
[14:28:48] SpikeSpiegel: 2-1
[14:28:50] ~Napalm: Darn you spike
[14:28:51] SpikeSpiegel: hugglez nap
[14:29:03] ~Napalm: GG's
[14:29:05] ~Napalm: *cries*
[14:29:18] xn0ize: SS moves on
[14:29:21] ~Napalm: I had a great hand at first, but you weren't there
[14:29:27] ~Napalm: So I had to restart
[14:29:35] ~Napalm: and get rewarded with yet another @#$% hand
[14:29:38] pikachufan2164: It's  to duel
[14:29:42] ~Napalm: Time to go cry myself to sleep
[14:29:45] ~Napalm: I need a nap anyway
[14:29:59] pikachufan2164: D:
[14:30:09] TStar: Sleep well Red
[14:30:14] SpikeSpiegel: yep
[14:30:17] SpikeSpiegel: pika
[14:30:20] SpikeSpiegel: 1 minute plz
[14:30:22] SpikeSpiegel:
[14:30:36] pikachufan2164: Take one of Desert's Kirby plushies with you :3
[14:30:40] Jen-i: can someone repost the brackets?
[14:31:23] pikachufan2164: http://challonge.com/buffuptourney
[14:32:00] TStar: dragonsdemesne and spiritkirinblade tell me the status of your match now please or I will have to coinflip it
[14:32:27] TStar: This is the 3rd and final time I'm going to ask
[14:33:00] spiritkirinblade: huh
[14:33:03] dragonsdemesne: oh
[14:33:05] spiritkirinblade: we are in game
[14:33:06] dragonsdemesne: in first game
[14:33:08] spiritkirinblade: but
[14:33:13] spiritkirinblade: he lagged out o.o
**[14:33:15] dragonsdemesne: itll probably be deckout
[14:33:18] dragonsdemesne: i did?
[14:33:24] TStar: First game?
[14:33:26] xn0ize: what's the SCORE?
[14:33:36] dragonsdemesne: sorry was afw playing the game
[14:33:42] spiritkirinblade: yeah..
[14:33:45] TStar: It's been almost 30 minutes and you two haven't finished a single game yet?
[14:33:45] spiritkirinblade: i took a screenie
[14:33:54] spiritkirinblade: hes got a 60 card deck!
[14:33:54] xn0ize: WTF?
[14:33:54] dragonsdemesne: 0-0 atm
[14:33:56] spiritkirinblade: :L
[14:34:05] spiritkirinblade: okay okay.
[14:34:07] spiritkirinblade: lets go again
[14:34:12] xn0ize: Tstar. can you coin toss them?
[14:34:13] TStar: ok we have to coinflip this
**[14:34:18] dragonsdemesne: we're still playing... did you d/c
[14:34:26] xn0ize: this is getting stupid
[14:34:28] TStar: sorry guys you are just taking far too long
**[14:34:30] dragonsdemesne: i still have the game up
**[14:34:36] spiritkirinblade: huh. you dc/ed
**[14:34:44] dragonsdemesne: well im going to win the first one
[14:34:53] SpikeSpiegel: pika?
[14:34:56] dragonsdemesne: i can take ss
[14:34:56] xn0ize: coin toss them from 0-0
[14:35:03] pikachufan2164: /nom
[14:35:13] dragonsdemesne: you just d/ced now spirit
[14:35:18] majofa: i love how people always say 'the other person' d/c
**[14:35:20] spiritkirinblade: i had 100 health and dragons left..
[14:35:23] TStar: dragons, pick heads or tails
[14:35:28] spiritkirinblade: I took a damn screenie
[14:35:32] spiritkirinblade: you want proof >_>
[14:35:34] dragonsdemesne: what the hell
**[14:35:37] dragonsdemesne: im winning and he d/c
**[14:35:41] dragonsdemesne: i can prove it
[14:36:01] xn0ize: GOD
[14:36:05] TStar: Fine you both have 3 minutes to show me proof that you were clearly going to win
[14:36:10] TStar: otherwise I'm flipping
[14:36:24] xn0ize: * god please help me, if you will, i will start to believe in you! *
[14:36:27] TStar: and screenshots against the AI are NOT proof
**[14:36:39] dragonsdemesne: i have one with the CPU playing in x seconds
[14:36:50] DevilLoss: hey everyone just came by to wish spike gl also was looking for TII but guess hes not here
[14:36:55] xn0ize: Tstar!
[14:36:58] TStar: That's fine, you have 2 minutes left to show it to me
[14:37:00] xn0ize: coin flip them from 0-0 PLEASE
[14:37:10] DevilLoss: also jen-iif hes playing also >.>
[14:37:17] xn0ize: if some one dced , they need to rematch
[14:37:29] xn0ize: and as it looks like, IT WILL TAKE FOR EVER
[14:37:32] dragonsdemesne: its upping to imageshack
[14:37:35] DevilLoss: whos runing this tourny?
**[14:37:57] dragonsdemesne: even if he has 2 permanents in play and 7 card in deck?
[14:38:03] TStar: You got 30 seconds left
**[14:38:14] spiritkirinblade: i had dragons left.
[14:38:17] spiritkirinblade: fyi
**[14:38:18] dragonsdemesne: http://img857.imageshack.us/i/picg.png/
[14:38:27] xn0ize: Tstar
[14:38:53] spiritkirinblade: look at my life quanta.
**[14:39:05] spiritkirinblade: i had 4 frickin jade dragons >_>
**[14:39:14] dragonsdemesne: not in play you didnt
[14:39:16] xn0ize: * cry *
**[14:39:21] dragonsdemesne: you had feral bond and hope
[14:39:26] spiritkirinblade: yeah but 7 cards left
[14:39:38] avenger: huh, what dragons
[14:39:40] dragonsdemesne: http://img857.imageshack.us/i/picg.png/
[14:39:44] xn0ize: * please help me god *
**[14:39:46] TStar: I can't call that I'm sorry
**[14:39:53] TStar: dragon heads or tails
[14:39:55] avenger: the shield would have blocked them
[14:39:58] RootRanger: IMO dragon deserves the win, but I don't have a say
[14:40:00] WVM2: is there any other tourney's today?
[14:40:11] RootRanger: his mitosised RoLs won't die
**[14:40:12] dragonsdemesne: you cant call me having 27 cards in deck and him 7 and no board?
[14:40:16] RootRanger: because life and light have no CC
**[14:40:19] avenger: there is a grav shield
**[14:40:27] avenger: it is clear that the rainbow won
**[14:40:27] dragonsdemesne: and i had a full field
**[14:40:32] RootRanger: and he can make enough RoLs to lockdown with the hope in his hand
[14:40:36] spiritkirinblade: yeah i agree actually.
[14:40:41] spiritkirinblade: i forfeit.
[14:41:04] TStar: ok thank you please post it dragon
[14:41:11] avenger: rr: 7 cards, deckout
[14:41:21] spiritkirinblade: I kinda wanted another game..
[14:41:28] dragonsdemesne: alright
[14:41:29] spiritkirinblade: ^_^ good luck.
[14:42:06] TStar: RootRanger the second into the Final 4 and also undefeated
[14:42:11] spiritkirinblade [»] dragonsdemesne: searching
[14:42:38] dragonsdemesne: ok we playing again or is that it for our match?
[14:42:43] TStar [»] dragonsdemesne: please post a 1-0 result in the thread so I can make it official
[14:42:46] RootRanger:
[14:42:51] spiritkirinblade: erm
[14:42:58] xn0ize: RR
[14:43:00] spiritkirinblade: its probably not official >_>
[14:43:04] xn0ize: i hope you wont smash me in finals
[14:43:06] spiritkirinblade: but let me face you
[14:43:06] dragonsdemesne [»] TStar: ok done
Any feedback is welcome; I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything wrong here.  My next opponent, who was also the other tournament organizer (tstar was helping her because challonge was messed up for her) was also very slow to respond to the next game, causing further delay as I waited for her for at least five minutes without any response from her in chat or in accepting my pvp duel challenge.

[14:48:31] dragonsdemesne [»] GirlsGeneration: ign dragonsdemesne, challenged
[14:49:25] dragonsdemesne: girlsgeneration you there?
[14:49:32] dragonsdemesne: sent pm and challenge
[14:50:23] dragonsdemesne: is anyone here?
[14:50:28] avenger: bye tournament, hope RR wins
[14:51:19] dragonsdemesne: hmm
[14:51:38] dragonsdemesne: not only is my opponent gone, she is the organizer
[14:52:23] GirlsGeneration: i've been waiting forever
[14:52:28] dragonsdemesne: me too
[14:52:32] GirlsGeneration: oh. just found it
[14:52:40] GirlsGeneration: oh great... 60 card deck....
[14:52:44] dragonsdemesne: i kept asking if you were here
[14:53:19] dragonsdemesne: ya im in now

[TheonlyrealBeef]

(regarding the picture) Yellow exclamation mark basically tells me all I need to know, severe desync
Wins are given only when there is absolute certainty you'd win:

• The timer is still active, you aren't playing the ai
• The damage on your board is certain to knock out your opponent after pressing spacebar
• There is no exclamation mark indicating a desync

Otherwise the match won't be given to either side, and a rematch should take place (unless it's taking too long, normal rounds have a time of 30 minutes (15 for best of one matches) + some extension each. In that case, indeed, a coin toss is done unless one side currently had more wins than the other).

As for the rest, I cannot, and will not speak on behalf of other organizers, I hope you have more fun during future tournaments.
Please contact the organizers responsible in case you question any decisions made by them.

[TStar]

While your screenshot does make it appear very likely you would prevail, it was unfortunately not enough for me to definitely say there was no chance your opponent could pull off a victory in his final 14 cards (hand plus deck).  Stranger things have happened and the precedent established is that unless a screenshot meets the criteria listed by Theonlyrealbeef above I cannot declare a winner.  When the 30 minute mark came I requested a status update three times before getting a reply.  By that point it was close to 40 minutes past the time the round started.  Since it was still a 0-0 tie after 40 minutes I was prepared to go to a coin toss a per the rules.  As it was your opponent conceded defeat in the game from your screenshot and you were named the winner by a 1-0 score.

I'm sorry that you were upset by this ruling.  I understand how frustrating it can be to lose to random chance like that (I lost in both the Eastern and Western Fate Egg tournament to coin flips) but as a temporary TO it was my responsibility to keep the tournament moving and follow the rules as they were written.  Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this any further or have any questions or concerns.

[dragonsdemesne]

re: THEONLYREALBEEF: Fair enough.  I do know my opponent had been lagging (hence why he got disconnected)  because I sent him a few messages, and he would either not respond or not get them, and when he did get them, he was getting them late, and kept asking me if I was there, even though I clearly was.  I suppose it was theoretically possible his remaining cards could have given him the win, but unless they were totally different than the rest of his ray of light/hope deck, it was extremely unlikely, and it would have required 8 more turns (to deck out his 7 cards) so it didn't meet the stated conditions.  I had taken the screenshot as soon as I saw Tstar say that an AI screenshot was insufficient, so when he said that and it was in the red counting down my opponent's timeout, I SSed it right away.

Regarding the 30 minutes rule, I don't know how long it had been, but the tournament had been very slow in starting due to technical issues with brackets/chat, and spiritkirinblade finished several minutes ahead of my previous match, so he was waiting while I finished the last round.  By the time I finished, he had disconnected or was afk or something, so it took several more minutes before he replied to my PMs in chat to play our match.  Then we were both playing control stall decks, so the game took a long time :p

re: TSTAR: I can respect that.  I considered it virtually impossible that my opponent could have recovered, but I suppose it might have been possible, and I certainly didn't have a next-turn win.  (though I have no idea what combination of cards could have theoretically beat that scenario in a seven turn time frame)  It is also fair (and my fault) that I did not see you in chat asking about the match because I was busy playing the match and not watching chat.  As soon as I noticed it, I replied, which was unfortunately several minutes and after you had already asked for an update 3 times.

The main issue I had was in regards to my opponent, who lied in chat about having had 4 jade dragons in play and seemed to be strongly suggesting (at least in my mind) that he was about to win (see above post for log) and that after I posted my screenshot showing that this was not the case, you hadn't said anything about it.  (and when he failed to provide one in turn) I do realize that desyncs can happen (but they seem to be rare, and I only saw it happen ever once, in pvp2, where all my opponent's creatures vanished for no reason when he lost connection for about 30 seconds) so I suppose you have to be careful about that as well.

Perhaps some better way of verifying this sort of thing should be done for tournaments?  It seems like this sort of thing comes down to he said/she said, and since I'm new and spiritkirinblade is a veteran (I've seen him in top50) it seemed like he/she was being believed over me.

edit:Also, just want to make sure there are no hard feelings about any of this.  Mostly I'm just trying to understand why it was handled as it was to prevent misunderstandings in the future.

[RootRanger]

If one player has a large chance of winning, I think they should be given a win if a coinflip is the only other option.

The TOs are good players and are able to tell who is more likely to win the game. They  usually won't be 100% sure one player is going to win, but a lot of the time they can be very confident that one player has the win.

So shouldn't the player more likely to win receive the win if a coinflip is the only other option?
With a coinflip, the better player advances only 50% of the time. But if the TOs choose who wins, the better player will advance more often than not.

[dragonsdemesne]

That does make sense, but with the current structure, how would the TOs know who was winning, unless they were spectating?  For all anyone knows, my screenshot could have been taken five minutes before my opponent disconnected when I was still winning, and maybe he made a comeback in the meantime?  I don't really have a solution, but there's definitely a potential for abuse there.

[Higurashi]

Perhaps some better way of verifying this sort of thing should be done for tournaments?  It seems like this sort of thing comes down to he said/she said, and since I'm new and spiritkirinblade is a veteran (I've seen him in top50) it seemed like he/she was being believed over me.

We didn't settle on the rules arbitrarily. There's no perfect or even great way of dealing with the main problem here: bad servers. There's only one way to prove anything, and even that isn't perfect: screenshots. Rulings of who won aren't based on anything else. People may seem more inclined to believe someone, but decisions aren't made on beliefs.

We rarely make a ruling unless a game is 100% certain, because that would be even more unfair than tossing a coin. Say what you will about randomness, but it's always fair.

Two things everyone have to be prepared for in a tournament: adapting to how much time other people have and finish the round in time while taking that into consideration. Secondly, connections dropping anywhere between you, the servers and your opponent. This can drag out rounds like nothing else and leaves us with no choice but to coinflip most of the time. Especially since we have a lot of other things to tend to, we can't make rulings on ambiguous duels.

Something everyone have to be prepared for in competitive elements everywhere: it's a lot like a lottery. Counters lose, everyone get sucky draws, desynchs can spoil all your chances at succeeding in a round, and you can't afford to take it too seriously.