Elements PvP Tournament - Suggestions and Feedback

[icecoldbro]

I suppose you could at least see what happens if you hold a tournament without prizes.  If turnout is too low, you can always switch back.  I keep focusing on the social aspects of the tournament rather than the actual prizes.  I enjoy the competitions and seeing what great ideas people come up with.

i have made ac ouple of these no prize cept respect and a small incentive in karma for tourny the turn out was good for the preparation it took(10+) most people dont participate in tourny because it hits an uncomfortable hour for them so we created (as we i mean who ever has run one) HOME MADE TOURNAMENTS yes they prizeless but they have great fun and rules are relly kept to a minimum (i.e. unuped mono)
hope i helped clarify it and hope it helps in future

[jmizzle7]

Sir Val, your intentions are all well and good, save for one glaring detail that has either been ignored or overlooked - there are still desync triggers that even zanz doesn't know of. We are all taking part in a witch hunt of sorts, and desync triggers are our target. I have been around since the very early days, and I can safely say that desync is very close to becoming extinct. PvP has come a long way since then, largely due to the fact that we have done a good job of identifying and eliminating desync triggers. Of course, every time a new card comes out, there are new desync triggers that come with it. Thus, as long as Elements the Game is evolving, PvP will continue to evolve and go through growing pains.

Instead of complaining about a symptom, why not help us out and try to figure out probable causes of desynchronization? If you have any possible suspects (I am still talking about cards, not players*), list them HERE (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2221.msg21402#msg21402).

*NOTE: players are not causes of desynchronization.

[Sir Valimont]

I suppose you could at least see what happens if you hold a tournament without prizes.  If turnout is too low, you can always switch back.  I keep focusing on the social aspects of the tournament rather than the actual prizes.  I enjoy the competitions and seeing what great ideas people come up with.

i have made ac ouple of these no prize cept respect and a small incentive in karma for tourny the turn out was good for the preparation it took(10+) most people dont participate in tourny because it hits an uncomfortable hour for them so we created (as we i mean who ever has run one) HOME MADE TOURNAMENTS yes they prizeless but they have great fun and rules are relly kept to a minimum (i.e. unuped mono)
hope i helped clarify it and hope it helps in future

Yes, the tourney I played in that you set up was a lot of fun. As for the karma, that's a perfectly good prize! Speaking of which, I thought I was going to get more for my victory.

[vrt]

Voted for "always replay" because "definitely about to win" is incredibly vague, too much so for a competitive setting.

The first ever tournament was won by jmizzle7 by a screenshot, actually. He was using a fire stall deck, and when he used the fire bolts on his last turn, he desynced.. However, with a screenshot of his quanta and amount of firebolts, it was pretty obvious he was the winner.

[Higurashi]

As I said before. However, he also mentions timing out as a problem, and that can indeed be due to either players or the servers. Since the servers still are taking a heavy load, they are still wonky. But that's just a financial issue, and will be resolved sooner or later.

Fact 1: Certain players are involved in matches that desync constantly.

Which usually passes, as they usually happen in periods.

Fact 2: Most players are NEVER involved in a match that desyncs UNLESS they are playing against someone in group 1.

False, for desyncs and especially for timeouts. "Most" will experience it at some point, and their opponent hasn't mattered in most of those cases.

Fact 3: Whether or not you can tell what caused a desync in a given instance, it remains true that the problem is somehow linked to certain players' connections.

Can be one factor, but is far from all of them. Been through that.

Fact 4: It is NOT FAIR to allow players who desync to replay games carte-blanche. It enables them to cheat. Whether they cheat or not is irrelevant.

And the alternative is even worse. Been through that too.

If you disagree with any of the above facts, you are wrong. And I'd be happy to explain to you why you're wrong if you'd like a discussion on the topic.

No, this is simply a case of having more experience to analyse from. Your results from observation may differ, but since they do, you have no basis for saying your observations are the absolute, objective truth. Especially when you deal with extremes like "always". It's great that you're trying to help the community and give suggestions, but your basic premises are wrong.

[Sir Valimont]

Fact 4: It is NOT FAIR to allow players who desync to replay games carte-blanche. It enables them to cheat. Whether they cheat or not is irrelevant.

And the alternative is even worse. Been through that too.

This sums up the biggest problem I have with all this conversation. It seems like you folks believe that "the alternative" is a single, obvious course of action, like to automatically force a forfeit on desyncers. Clearly there are many other ways one could handle the problem; and personally I think that when a player PMs me before our tournament saying he hopes he doesn't desync like he had been constantly through the entire other tournament, then desyncs after three turns when I'm kicking his ass, then is somehow impossible to connect to for a few minutes, then shows up with a draw that has cards I didn't see in the previous game that so happen to be perfect against my deck, and then has absolutely no problem with desyncing ... well, several issues have been raised. First of all, independent of "cheating," if we are talking about "worse alternatives," well then quite frankly what happened to me is a much worse alternative than telling this person who singlehandedly caused every single game he played in a previous tournament to be replayed 6 times that he had to sit this one out.

[Sir Valimont]

Sir Val, your intentions are all well and good, save for one glaring detail that has either been ignored or overlooked - there are still desync triggers that even zanz doesn't know of. We are all taking part in a witch hunt of sorts, and desync triggers are our target. I have been around since the very early days, and I can safely say that desync is very close to becoming extinct. PvP has come a long way since then, largely due to the fact that we have done a good job of identifying and eliminating desync triggers. Of course, every time a new card comes out, there are new desync triggers that come with it. Thus, as long as Elements the Game is evolving, PvP will continue to evolve and go through growing pains.

Instead of complaining about a symptom, why not help us out and try to figure out probable causes of desynchronization? If you have any possible suspects (I am still talking about cards, not players*), list them HERE (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2221.msg21402#msg21402).

*NOTE: players are not causes of desynchronization.

I have no doubt everything you said is accurate, but I never advocated sweeping measures for desyncs the way your post implies. This is not a witch hunt, and not an accusation of cheating against anyone. What this is is a simple recognition that the actual RULES of the tournament need to cut out an important loophole. You simply can't hope to fix the problem by "catching every way to force a desync."

You guys have much more experience with this community and with this game than I do. I would wager that I have much more experience in community management and product design than you guys do. That's not meant to be an invitation to one-upmanship; but there really is a central design concept here that I feel is being overlooked. When there's a potential flaw in the system, you don't patch it up on a case-by-case basis, stepping through each way to exploit the flaw and specifically countering it. At least you don't do that first. What you do first is change your system so that the flaw doesn't matter at all. THAT is good design. THAT is what I'm advocating.

Frankly, even if someone is not cheating at all, if desyncs happen in such a way that they favor one player just by sheer luck, that's still completely unfair, regrettable and should be avoided. And I haven't really seen any reason in this entire thread why it would be so difficult to improve rules to that end. The disconnect seems to be that many of you talk about these things as if they are completely random, and divorced from any pattern of occurrence. In reality though there are two "types" of desyncs, at least in the way they occur: some are completely random, seemingly; others are closely tied to certain players. The latter group need to be addressed, and not excused because of the former. It's really not hard to tell the two groups apart, yet that seems to be the only argument people raise against doing something at all.

[killsdazombies]

Something needs to be done about desyncing. Well, assuming these tournaments are meant to be fair anyway.

Perhaps more to the point, tournament organizers need to recognize the legitimate concerns that desyncing enables cheating rather than resorting to responses like the one given in the post above.

Ya... how does that help cheating. -_- makes no sense. all you have to do is pvp them again untill no desynch. Besides desynch can be dealed with the TO work hard enough in Tourneys.

desync make TO angry. VERY ANGRY.


desyncs suck, they happen, you deal with them. Please dont start a hate thread about desyncs because every one hates them, we try to solve them in tournaments to the best of our ability but the use of screen shots helps alot.

[DrunkDestroyer]

Sir Valiamont, I can see where you are coming from. But really, you are confusing people, because in general, you refer to 'desyncs', which are associated with bad connections ect. But what you are really reffering to is intentional desync when you talk about opponents changing cards based on your deck, or 'desyncing' until they have a perfect hand.

I too suspect someone of doing this, as we played 5-7 games(mirror matches), most of them very short, and I lost 2-0 (If you recognise yourself here, It would be wise not to post as you are deliberately being left anonymous). I don't often have huge problems with desync, so this struck me as slightly suspicious, as the next time we played, I deliberately used mediocre decks, and we played 2 only games (no desyncs), and I lost both times again.

However, there was really no way of proving whether it was desync or not (no desync warnings ever showed up, just timed out and left to play computer before it was obvious a winner could be chosen, but after initial hands were played).

Of course, it may have just been bad connection that day (although my other matches went fine). I have not acted upon my suspicions (as you obviously have) as that is all they are, suspicions.

(again, if you do recongnise yourself here, claiming so will only raise suspicion. I will NEVER reveal your name on a public thread)

[Sir Valimont]

Sir Valiamont, I can see where you are coming from. But really, you are confusing people, because in general, you refer to 'desyncs', which are associated with bad connections ect. But what you are really reffering to is intentional desync when you talk about opponents changing cards based on your deck, or 'desyncing' until they have a perfect hand.

I too suspect someone of doing this, as we played 5-7 games(mirror matches), most of them very short, and I lost 2-0 (If you recognise yourself here, It would be wise not to post as you are deliberately being left anonymous). I don't often have huge problems with desync, so this struck me as slightly suspicious, as the next time we played, I deliberately used mediocre decks, and we played 2 only games (no desyncs), and I lost both times again.

However, there was really no way of proving whether it was desync or not (no desync warnings ever showed up, just timed out and left to play computer before it was obvious a winner could be chosen, but after initial hands were played).

Of course, it may have just been bad connection that day (although my other matches went fine). I have not acted upon my suspicions (as you obviously have) as that is all they are, suspicions.

(again, if you do recongnise yourself here, claiming so will only raise suspicion. I will NEVER reveal your name on a public thread)

Thanks for your post DrunkDestroyer, I think it's really helpful.

For everyone who's contributed to the thread -- Higurashi, KDZ, and others -- I want to thank you for your insight and also reiterate that the whole point of this discussion is to improve tourney rules and our PvP experience.

I think my experience and Drunk's experience are not isolated cases. Of course we all hope that there are no cheaters in our midst; but simple wisdom dictates otherwise ... there simply is no online gaming community that doesn't have cheaters. And the unfortunate truth is that in my experience most adolescent game players -- yes, MOST -- would cheat for an unfair advantage if they were 100% sure of not getting caught.

We really should be taking concerns from players like Drunk and me seriously. Not because we want to prosecute those suspected of foul play, but because the whole point of regulation is to make participants NOT feel like they have to have suspicions. People should be able to feel they can trust the system, and that trust should be based on rules of fair play rather than purely on faith in other players.

[Rastafla]

If you were winning you should have asked your opponent to do the right thing and give you the win, if he/she doesn't want too and you feel you should have won post the screenshots and ask for a TO to rule.
We have a honor system here, to ask people to do the right thing, and all veterans follows it.

personal anecdoteI myself have lost just as you described it, good draw and the opponent desyncs about halfway to three quarters into the game where my win was a couple of turns away with virtually NOTHING being able to stop me. I asked my opponent for the win but didn't get one, I requested desync screenshot and got one, we restarted and the next game i was pillarscrewed. Lost and was out.
All you can do is get over it and try next week.

About desyncs:
Both players desync, not just 1 because conflicting data is being sent to the server. If you doubt the other players honesty request a screenshot of your desync that he/she got. He/she have to be able to provide one. If the opponent mess with his connection it will say that he left! All that jmizzle said is true and i cant say this enough; Its hard to cause a desync by will. If your opponent tries to cause a desync what will show is in almost all cases is that your opponent left or something else in the msg from the game.

One player desyncing alot.
Does not happen as much as you make it sound. A players may have a bad connection to another player. Its unfair to just kick him/her out or penalize for that. However, if that player desync in round after round he/she will be booted and its counts as leaving so the last person who lost in that line of the bracket will get back in. TOs have done so before. (If its a vet they'll excuse themselves and leave on their own before it becomes an issue)

If someone is saying he/she desyncs a lot and the deck changes etc talk to TO at once. Remember to take screens.

Always take screen especially against people you've never fought before.

personal observation
One thing about desyncs, they are most common in prelim and round 1 among newbies and less between newbies vs veterans, and the least among veterans. I wonder why? It cant be server stress, its just some 15-25 extra games.
PS I also feel your main problem with all this is that you feel you've been treated unfairly which you have not, its the same for everyone and you have 2 new chances each week. So my advise is to play in more tournaments.

[Demut]

Are those special rules tournaments supposed to be weekly?