Elements PvP Tournament - Suggestions and Feedback

[Sir Valimont]

Clearly you think I referred to you and got butthurt. I did not.

Don't be infantile. It detracts from the otherwise intelligent points you are making.

Nope, it's not a minority at all, and they can't be held responsible since they have nothing to do with it, either. I've played up to ten rematches because my opponent or I desynced or timed out (they are not the same thing). Here's the thing about desyncs: both players desync from the server, which means you will see strange stuff happen, and so will your opponent. Therefore it's rather impossible to tell whose connection is doing it, or if it's just the server (which is the most likely, as they are dodgy).

I think it's quite clear that certain players, or certain connections, cause desyncs while others don't. As Dragoon pointed out there may be other causes -- but there are players who desync 5 times against every single opponent they play in every single tournament they play. It is intentionally myopic to pretend, therefore, that "you can't tell whose connection is doing it." Yeah, you can't tell given one instance. But when a person never desyncs against anyone and another person desyncs against everyone, and then the two play each other and desync, it doesn't take a genius to figure out whose connection is the problem.

Trusting people is lovely, but it misses my point. I am not advocating that people don't trust each other. I am explaining that a well built system does not enable cheating, even if it's only potential cheating. I am therefore encouraging discussion on this topic as it could lead to an improvement in the rules.

[Amilir]

The problem is, it's impossible to tell who disconnected, and it happens unintentionally frequently.  Just how sure can you be that it wasn't a problem on your side?  Or the server?

Is double forfeit for disconnect better?  Really?  You can't let someone force a forfeit for disconnecting because that would allow for even greater cheating, or unfair power to vets.  It IS a serious problem, but there's no good solution, except major changes by zanz.  Even that won't solve it all.

[Sir Valimont]

... take it like a man.   

Lol ... are you claiming to speak from experience Dragoon?

On topic:

It's great that these issues are "rare" as you put it. Sounds about right -- definitely the community here is a good one.

Still, this community is going to grow. As games get more popular, more douchebags join. That's just a reality of online games. These people are going to try to cheat. It's easy to imagine that it will be simple to regulate the system, but that opinion is derived from the relatively small community existence that is current; when there are literally hundreds of people playing in tens of tournaments, it becomes extremely important to have ironclad rules that prevent foul play. I'm not claiming that people here are dishonest -- just that those rules should be enforced sooner rather than later.

[Sir Valimont]

The problem is, it's impossible to tell who disconnected, and it happens unintentionally frequently.  Just how sure can you be that it wasn't a problem on your side?  Or the server?

Is double forfeit for disconnect better?  Really?  You can't let someone force a forfeit for disconnecting because that would allow for even greater cheating, or unfair power to vets.  It IS a serious problem, but there's no good solution, except major changes by zanz.  Even that won't solve it all.

Well I think your points are right on. Clearly a double forfeit for disconnect is no good. But there needs to be a distinction made for players who cause desyncs and players who don't. Perhaps different tournaments: the desync tournament being one where you're at risk of your opponent desyncing; the no-desync tournament you would get, say, 3 total desyncs the whole tourney, after which every desync is a forfeit. Play at your own risk.

[Demagog]

The solution is just to make desyncs as unlikely to occur as possible. Once Zanz does that, problem "solved."

[Sir Valimont]

The solution is just to make desyncs as unlikely to occur as possible. Once Zanz does that, problem "solved."

Well quite honestly I think this sounds very smart. I just am unsure that the desyncs are caused by the code so much as certain people's connections. I suppose that, at least in theory, the problem could be addressed with specific coding upgrades, regardless of the problem's source ... but that's speculative at best.

I wonder what Zanz thinks about this.

[Higurashi]

Not any more infantile than assuming too much and acting on it, really. In fact, it only does make you look insecure, which is unfortunate as I don't think that's the case.
Yes, you want a good system. We've been through how that would look, and we've been through why it doesn't work right now, as the game is as it is, and the servers are as they are.
However, to have people who keep watch over who causes the most desyncs would require that we have more tournament organisers. A lot more. We already need more, as I see it, as most tournaments are still very chaotic. Even if we got a bunch more, most who desync a lot stop doing so after a period of time, right in the middle of a tournament. There's no way to tell for what reason, and thus we can't act on it as you would like. It would be far too drastic, and having the small risk we have now is a small price to pay. We've been through this as well, though. I don't think we need to repeat ourselves further; we simply disagree.

Now, a change in the future may become relevant then, if we do indeed get a lot of people who will create desyncs on purpose. Sure.

Edit: We are actively reporting desync bugs as a community, and the devs are working on that bug. It's a rather annoying one, after all.

[Sir Valimont]

Not any more infantile than assuming too much and acting on it, really. In fact, it only does make you look insecure, which is unfortunate as I don't think that's the case.

You used the term "butthurt" whereas I raised an issue that you AGREE is important. All I'm saying is that you don't need to resort to personal attacks -- like saying I'm "insecure" because a course of action I didn't advocate ... like acting on assumptions ... strikes you as immature. I've raised this issue because I think it merits discussion. I don't need to be accused of being "butthurt" or "insecure" just the same way you don't need to dilute your good points with name-calling.

... most who desync a lot stop doing so after a period of time, right in the middle of a tournament. There's no way to tell for what reason, and thus we can't act on it as you would like.

This is really interesting and I had no idea this was the case. Still, the only "action" I've proposed is that people who desync a lot be responsible for it. Not that they are forced to forfeit every time. Not that they are being blamed for it either. Just responsible. I think it's a reasonable line of thinking; the question becomes what the best way to enforce it would be.

[Higurashi]

Nor do I need to be accused of accusing anyone, or have strawmen attacked. You paved the way because you assumed, I ran on it, you didn't like it. It's miscommunication. We done in the sandbox now?

[Sir Valimont]

Clearly you think I referred to you and got butthurt.

I must not know this idiomatic expression in English ... To me it sounded like you were accusing me of misreading you. That's why I said you "accused me of being butthurt" in my last post. Did I not understand something correctly? Was I totally off-base in thinking it was childish to tell someone they were "butthurt" ?

You paved the way because you assumed, I ran on it, you didn't like it.

What did I assume exactly? I'm not sure what you're talking about ... feel free to quote me ...

I never assumed, for instance, that people are cheaters. I specifically said, several times, that I didn't think they were. I said that the system should be built so it is cheating-proof, and that that is independently important of whether or not there are cheaters present.

I never assumed either, for instance, that only some people desync and only in some situations. I made the case that certain people's connections cause desyncs very regularly in PvP. I think that is irrefutable. Tell me if I'm wrong. Again, the statement to refute would be: "Certain people's connections cause desyncs very regularly in PvP."

[wavedash]

Voted for "always replay" because "definitely about to win" is incredibly vague, too much so for a competitive setting.

[Higurashi]

It's not, actually, since both players -have- to agree on it unless an organiser was spectating the match and makes a call. Just the poll wording that's lacking.