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Offline blarp

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531333#msg531333
« Reply #300 on: August 10, 2012, 04:33:26 am »
Well having to guess between 3 decks for about 90 % of my games ain't fun ... All I am facing is shard golems decks, shard of sofo decks and sosa decks.  So I will painly finish my 30 matches but likely wont reenter if no changes are made.

If you play the same people over and over again that happens. It has to do a lot about the few numbers of players than the possible decks.
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Offline blarp

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531355#msg531355
« Reply #301 on: August 10, 2012, 04:53:05 am »
I think the main problem is the rating system. It needs to stabilize out much more and much sooner than it does. 30 games in, you shouldn't be able to pull a 500 point flip.
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Offline blarp

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531767#msg531767
« Reply #302 on: August 11, 2012, 02:33:48 am »
Can the league prizes be increased? Just looking at the prizes for tournaments, for basically an hour of time the winner gets a nymph/mark and 7k electrum for a weekly event. Leagues last 3 months, are at minimum 30 games, and take up a lot more time. I understand people say that league is some kind of event on the side, but that isn't true to everyone. People who are in war who don't want to dedicate time to leagues shouldn't influence the rewards of people who do...

I've had to upgrade tons of cards for CL, and a 10k electrum reward is great and all, but it's not significant for an upped event like CL.

People like to hate on CL compared to BL, and maybe there isn't such a skill difference involved, but CL IS a lot more expensive to play if you're not already maxed up. And I don't believe the rewards for leagues should be based from the perspective of the most elite in the community, even if those are the most likely winners.

Now I know it's kinda biased saying all this when I'm rank 1 in CL atm, but I didn't know how hefty a reward was given out for weekly tournaments and I'm not going to not mention it just because it is ill-timed... Also maybe being rank 1 atm justifies some credibility? even though there are a few people who for some reason think I didn't earn it...

I'll save the argument for additional nymphs for both leagues for another time, but for CL, the electrum reward for places 1-6 should definitely be increased substantially.
I'd also recommend some kind of 1-3k+ consolation prize for people who finish their 30 matches in both leagues, because unless it's a ton of work to get all these codes, I think it's reasonable and may increase participation. or maybe 100ish electrum per match, given out at the end in quantities of 1000s? idk. cheating possibilities aside. maybe give out a shard or something idk



The point is for CL, other than the nymphs/mark, the rewards are kinda just unbalanced for the effort. And with the current rating system, it's much harder to maintain a high rating than older systems.


for the record I'd estimate I've upped around 4-5 full decks for the league specifically. Now sure there's crossover and stuff, but it's still significantly higher than 10k and that's only given out if you make first.



Kinda ranty but whatever, hopefully you get the point. Don't hate on me for wanting more electrum because honestly 10k is really not that much for anyone reading this. I don't think you can legitimately place in the top 3 spots in CL where 10k is that relevant. The prizes used to be greater and the league shorter, but with the extra month of time, I think it's been reduced too much.


Sure I'd be irked a little bit, but implementing a boost starting the next league will be better than nothing. Or nerf the prizes for other events to make it more balanced.
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Offline pikachufan2164

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531771#msg531771
« Reply #303 on: August 11, 2012, 02:44:33 am »
-snip-
No, we can't have more prizes. Zanz only distributes a limited number of codes for each season, and we have to respect that.

As for the whole thing about balancing rewards between the two leagues, there has been a lot of discussion on that. Jenkar and I have decided that it would be best to have equal rewards because there is little to no additional skill gap between BL and CL -- only the presence of upgraded cards in the latter. Both have their own metagames, and neither one is easier to win than the other.
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Offline blarp

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531772#msg531772
« Reply #304 on: August 11, 2012, 02:46:56 am »
-snip-
No, we can't have more prizes. Zanz only distributes a limited number of codes for each season, and we have to respect that.

As for the whole thing about balancing rewards between the two leagues, there has been a lot of discussion on that. Jenkar and I have decided that it would be best to have equal rewards because there is little to no additional skill gap between BL and CL -- only the presence of upgraded cards in the latter. Both have their own metagames, and neither one is easier to win than the other.
I understand the lack of skill gap, but it is much more expensive to play. i don't care if you upgrade both of the leagues prize money, but all anyone cares about is the nymphs tbh. don't have to make those uneven.

if it's not a possibility to increase the rewards due to the technical aspects of simply not having the codes for it fine. but if it's just because experienced players both don't care about electrum and think BL is better, that's dumb.

LO Comment: Merged the doubleposting. gah i was editing that :P

here pika: I think I was pretty careful when doing it
http://elementscommunity.org/tools/pvpleague/?league=2&w1=1&l1=2&w2=2&l2=3&w3=4&l3=2&w4=4&l4=3&w5=5&l5=1&w6=6&l6=4&w7=5&l7=2&w8=6&l8=2&w9=1&l9=6&w10=2&l10=1&w11=2&l11=6&w12=1&l12=3&w13=1&l13=7&w14=6&l14=1&w15=3&l15=6&w16=2&l16=1&w17=1&l17=3&w18=3&l18=8&p1=Calindu&p2=furballdn&p3=mrpaper&p4=Onizuka&p5=blarp&p6=Laxadarap&p7=memimemi&p8=Kuroaitou
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 02:53:12 am by blarp »
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Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531783#msg531783
« Reply #305 on: August 11, 2012, 03:44:25 am »
-snip-
No, we can't have more prizes. Zanz only distributes a limited number of codes for each season, and we have to respect that.

As for the whole thing about balancing rewards between the two leagues, there has been a lot of discussion on that. Jenkar and I have decided that it would be best to have equal rewards because there is little to no additional skill gap between BL and CL -- only the presence of upgraded cards in the latter. Both have their own metagames, and neither one is easier to win than the other.
I understand the lack of skill gap, but it is much more expensive to play. i don't care if you upgrade both of the leagues prize money, but all anyone cares about is the nymphs tbh. don't have to make those uneven.

if it's not a possibility to increase the rewards due to the technical aspects of simply not having the codes for it fine. but if it's just because experienced players both don't care about electrum and think BL is better, that's dumb.

LO Comment: Merged the doubleposting. gah i was editing that :P

here pika: I think I was pretty careful when doing it
http://elementscommunity.org/tools/pvpleague/?league=2&w1=1&l1=2&w2=2&l2=3&w3=4&l3=2&w4=4&l4=3&w5=5&l5=1&w6=6&l6=4&w7=5&l7=2&w8=6&l8=2&w9=1&l9=6&w10=2&l10=1&w11=2&l11=6&w12=1&l12=3&w13=1&l13=7&w14=6&l14=1&w15=3&l15=6&w16=2&l16=1&w17=1&l17=3&w18=3&l18=8&p1=Calindu&p2=furballdn&p3=mrpaper&p4=Onizuka&p5=blarp&p6=Laxadarap&p7=memimemi&p8=Kuroaitou

It's not about thinking one is better.  It's about thinking both are equal.  There's an unupped metagame and an upped metagame.  Both deserve the same prizes for the same skill, no matter the expense to play.  Also Zanz only gives out a limited number of codes, and this is all we have for leagues.

Offline blarp

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531804#msg531804
« Reply #306 on: August 11, 2012, 04:49:57 am »
I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to do it, but I'd like to give a shoutout to this season's CL.

First off dragonsdemesne, you were great. Some of my toughest fights were against you and I'm honored to have had you there at the beginning of this league kicking my ass. You were what motivated me to build many of the decks I have now, and it was great to finally beat you in the last game we played. You definitely deserve your 2nd/3rd spot.

Newbiecake, you were the Onizuka of the beginning of this league. Number 1 and the guy to beat. You impressed me by your ability to beat dragonsdemesne where I had always failed. Sorry to see you go inactive for the remainder of the league.

Calindu, I don't know if it was RNG, but you did not have a good record against me :P I don't know what to say other than from the games I've seen you play, you're quite good although have poor deck choices at times. I'm sure you'll do better next league.

memimemi, wow. you came out of nowhere and swept CL with your first games. Beating Oni and I both. You weren't on much, and your following games seemed a little rushed in an attempt to hit 30, but you came into the league hitting hard and while my revenge was cold when I finally got my rematch, idk. You're strong and if you put in more games, the results may have been different.

furballdn! you nearly fked me up with your two back to back beatings you gave me. your shard golem deck is no joke and with reflect shields banned, quite scary. you were definitely a wild card. Not the most consistent in terms of RNG or deck choice, but you could beat anybody in this league.

AnnaMall, we had some good games with some hard times. Desyncs ruled our games. Sorry about all that :( Pleasure playing you though.

Gemini, you'll only get better. You had some good decks and we played some very close games. Sorry to see you go.

Onizuka, you're good. You were a good competitor and if you compete in the next league, I'm sure you'll do as well if not better.

Laxadarap, I look forward to playing you in the next league :P

And for everyone else, it was a pleasure to compete with you guys! I look forward to seeing you in the next CL!
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Offline furballdn

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531825#msg531825
« Reply #307 on: August 11, 2012, 05:24:44 am »
Comments on CL

Hard to find opponents. There are so few people playing, and finding someone with a convenient time isn't easy.

Shards the game. Nearly every game is heavily shard dependent, becoming an rps of shards.

Reflect ban meant that SoW was much more powerful. Nothing can stop a SoW golem besides SoSac.

The most fun I've had in this league were when the people I played agreed to ban SoFo, SoSa, or all shards. Made games much more enjoyable and challenging.

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531864#msg531864
« Reply #308 on: August 11, 2012, 07:48:37 am »
I might as well throw out a few of my comments, since league's done on Monday, and barring a huge change in rankings (i.e. me dropping below 3rd) I don't plan to play any more games this season, I'll give a few more comments/thanks to people, too.

@blarp: Thanks :)  I tried my best, and I'm glad you had fun playing against me.  You were one of my tougher opponents as well, and given that I'd never heard of you before playing in the league, I expected you to be easy, frankly, but you weren't :p

@newbiecakes/onizuka: You two guys were the only two that managed to beat me more times than I beat them (2-3 vs newbie and 1-2 vs onizuka) and while I did rant about RNG a lot vs Onizuka because our games were always so close, these two guys were really good players as well.  I'll also give Onizuka a massive thumbs up because he told me he never used shard of focus at all in league this season.

@furballdn/kuroaitou + Laxadarap: Thanks to you guys for being online so much; furball/kuro both played 8 games against me this season, more than anyone else.  Laxadarap played with me six times, so he gets an honourable mention :)  You three also had some pretty interesting decks, and a lot of them; I almost never saw the same deck twice.  (and I kept track of what everyone used vs me for the second half of the season, to aid in predictions, so I know it's true :p)

@jenkar: Thanks for volunteering to run leagues, and thanks for putting up with my forgetting to capitalize names, etc, in my posts, as well as my hard to spell name :p  (he mentioned both of those to me in chat at least once each!)

@everybody: Thanks for all the games, and sorry for some of the boring and mean decks I had.  I never had any problems with people being jerks in any way, and I saw nothing but good sportsmanship from my opponents.  I had a couple times where my opponents were very good about desyncs and things like that, and I tried to do the same for my opponents as well; a couple times after desyncs, my opponents simply just gave me the win because they knew they couldn't have won, and I did the same a few times as well when I knew I'd have lost had we not had the desync.  As far as I know, there were no complaints about me in that regard, and I have none about any of the people I played with.

About things in general:

-Opponents were very hard to find (too hard) for CL.  I know it will always be harder to find CL opponents than BL due to the upped card requirement, but even BL had some troubles this season.  In CL, the standings have five people at 30+ games, and there's a couple more that should once the standings are updated again, but almost anyone who actually played 30 games will get a prize.  (I think it'll change once standings are updated for the final time, but as it stands now, the last place player in CL will actually get the 5th place prize due to inactivity of the rest, but there's 3 or 4 more people who will have 30 by season's end)  BL had it a little better, with ten people at 30+ games, and a couple more that might once we're updated again; they had three times as many played, but only about five or six more active ones, as most people in BL played under 5 games, which indicates to me that they tried it and didn't like it.

-shards were pretty heavily used.  I personally don't have a problem with shards being used a lot, but I really don't like shards of sacrifice and focus.  Virtually every deck had to consider these two cards when determining whether the deck was viable or not.  Shard of sacrifice was responsible for my using purify in so many decks, and shard of focus was responsible for my later inclusion of mind flayers.

-Discord.  This card's a real pain.  I played several games that were literally decided by coin flip with this card.  DBH mirror, the winner is whoever played discord first.  DBH vs many other decks is also coinflip; if I won the coin toss with DBH, I often kept my opponents from playing anything the entire game, and that had to have been frustrating.  If I lost the coinflip, they'd often get something out before discord landed and I'd be doomed.  Also, and I really hate to say this, but DBH was often the deck I picked to use against players I thought were weaker, because discord simply messes up so many lower tier decks.  (apologies to anyone who saw me use DBH against them a lot :p)

-prizes: I agree with cheesy that both leagues should have equal prizes.  CL does require more electrum, obviously, but BL requires just as much skill to come out on top.  I also agree with blarp that the prizes for league should be bigger compared to tournaments, but that's solely up to Zanz's discretion, so saying any more than that is futile.  I mean, if I had 5th place in league and got 3k for all those games... I'd feel ripped off :p  I was really hoping to get a mark or at least a foil chimera from the 4th place shard, but getting just electrum would suck.

-rating system: KRACH had its problems, like encouraging inactivity later in the season, but overall I still think it's better than it would've been had ELO been used.  The biggest trouble with ELO is overranking poorer players at the beginning of the season and underranking better players, which means that it's very advantageous to play players you know/suspect are weak very early in the season and avoid those you know are strong, and later in the season, the reverse is true.  KRACH gets around this, but it also encourages people to camp the top spots.  Late in the season, for instance, I knew that unless blarp or onizuka screwed up big time, I couldn't possibly catch them, and that unless I screwed up, nobody else would be likely to catch me, so there was no incentive for me to keep playing, whereas in ELO, I'd have kept playing until the bitter end in an effort to catch them.  A modified KRACH system would probably be best, one where the rating swing between higher and lower players isn't so high, and one where the points for beating someone closer in rank is a little higher, so that camping top ranks isn't a viable strategy.

-reflect ban: I understand why this was done (because purify resulted in desyncs when used vs reflection) but I think a better solution would have been to ban shard of sacrifice instead.  Without SoSa, there is no reason to cast purify on the opponent, and it's a much better ban because it improves the meta more as well as removing that source of guaranteed desyncs.  Furballdn mentions that 'nothing can stop a SoW golem besides SoSac' and while I don't agree with that, I do agree that SoW golems got a lot stronger after that ban.  (I beat SoW golems with poison dials every time, and often won with speedbow rushes and chaos wyrms, and those last two had no SoSa)

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  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday Cake1st Person to Escape the TempleSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeChampionship League 2/2012 2nd PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWinner of the Harry Potter PvP House Cup - HoH5th Trials - Master of EntropyWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531886#msg531886
« Reply #309 on: August 11, 2012, 09:15:09 am »
Well I can still screw up if my internet won't let me get the games :P
You're just as selfish as I am. You're just not as good at it yet.

Offline nilsieboy

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  • nilsieboy is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.nilsieboy is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.nilsieboy is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.nilsieboy is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.nilsieboy is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.
  • Always trust badgers.
  • Awards: 6th Trials - Master of GravitySlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake5th Trials - Master of Gravity4th Trials - Master of GravitySlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake24 Club (cost 24+ cards during War auction)Beginners League 3/2010 2nd Place3-Man Team PvP #1 WinnerTeam PvP #1 WinnerWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg533895#msg533895
« Reply #310 on: August 16, 2012, 09:12:03 pm »
Shards be gone.
:gravity nilsieboy :gravity
I wondered why the titan was getting bigger, then it hit me. ~gravity
avatar by agentflare.

Offline regen2k9

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  • regen2k9 is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.regen2k9 is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • *dances*
  • Awards: Beginners League 2/2012 3rd PlaceSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg534041#msg534041
« Reply #311 on: August 17, 2012, 06:29:55 am »
I agree that many games are shard dependent but if shards are banned in leagues then where are we going to be able to use them in competitive pvp?  While I DO think that the shardless metagame is MUCH more balanced, I can't help but think that as long as a card exists there should be a place to use it in pvp.
Walk towards the :light...

 

blarg: